DJ_Dust's page

Also this could explain why an incorporal creature that has a weight and str of 0 is able to pick something up because when its incorporal form it can be picked up because it doesnt weight anything, its incorporal.

I don't fully agree with the statement that they have a STR of 0, because they don't have one in the first place, though that WOULD probably result in a 0 carrying capacity, as if it had a 0 STR. That would explain why they receive no negs/benefits to damage from STR.

And to be honest, I'm certain that they didn't think that many people would arm their shadow with a ghost touch weapon as few would even have a different incorporeal creature pick up a player's ghost touch weapon, resulting in the loose wording within ghost touch's description.

I think the reason why an incorporal is able to pick it and up and weild it is that its no longer corporal but now incorporal because it doesnt have weight now. I looked up the enchant and it states on the last line that a ghost touch weapon counts both as corporal OR incorporal. That gives me the impression that it changes from corporal to incorporal and back and forth depending on the situation.

That's awesome! Only questions I have remaining for that then would be: So if an incorporeal creature wields it, and it would then become incorporeal, does it

Diego Rossi wrote:

The incorporeal ability in the glossary say that incorporeal creatures have no weight. If we extend that to incorporeal items it would allow the shadow to carry the spear.

While that would work, I don't want to just stop at that explaination because a corporeal weapon has weight and the ghost touch weapon is treated as both.

If we went by that, it would also bring up the possibility to have the incorporeal weapon ignore armor from anything other than force effects and being able to pass through walls and such... That's why I feel that this particular matter should be a completely separate question. We have already diverted quite a bit away from the initial question, which has already been answered, with this tangent.

Sorry, but it don't work.

Please be more specific as to what you believe doesn't work.

There is no rules that say that the shadow use a strength of 10...

I know, that is why I said with extrapolation from the Construct creature type. Constructs have no constitution score, to deal with this for things like its fortitude saves and similar things that require the bonus/neg from one's constitution score, they are treated as having a +0 bonus, which basically sets the score to 10-11 for these effects and mechanics alone.(http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html#constuct)

So the shadow can pick it up and move it but it still has ha strength of - . What is its carrying capacity? 0

I don't know and that is an entirely different question, which I will start a new topic for.

The incorporeal ability in the glossary say that incorporeal creatures have no weight. If we extend that to incorporeal items it would allow the shadow to carry the spear.

While that would work, I don't want to just stop at that explaination because a corporeal weapon has weight and the ghost touch weapon is treated as both.

2) "A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes." Any incorporeal creature can move the weapon, but only ghost can use it.

Strange.

They are using "a manifesting ghost" as a general shorthand. In all honesty, when you think incorporeal creature, isn't ghost and wright some of the first that come to mind?

A ghost's stats are almost the same:
Str —, Dex 12, Con —, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 20

There isn't anything that would change the capability to wield a weapon save for the fact that it is generally a humanoid spirit. However, a shadow is of a humanoid shape (according to it's bestiary page) though not necessarily the remains of a humanoid creature.

3) The shadow isn't proficient with the spear. That is a -4 to hit. AFAIK it has no way to get the needed feat. A shadowdancer get a standard shadow with specific changes. You don't get to change its feats nor it get additional feats.

Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry

(http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html#undead)

I suppose you gave the shadow the spear for the reach,...

It's more so because it just has good damage for a simple weapon...

...but its strength draining touch is stronger against a lot of enemies.

I just have it to deal with the enemies immune to it, which has helped A LOT against the constructs we've been seeing in our campaign so far.

I'm not sure it was clearly addressed, but in answer to your original question, no the incorporeal creature should not get dex to damage. Unless it has a magical effect or ability that states otherwise. Getting dex to damage is the result of very specific abilities and it is explicitly stated. The agile quality can do it, gunslingers can do it with guns at level 5, slashing grace can do it, as can Swashbuckelrs. Otherwise, without one of those abilities (or something like them) no one gets dex to damage.

It was, but not quite so clearly. None the less, your answer is appreciated!

Wait until you give that Ghost a Ghost Touch Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Ghost Fist!

Unfortunately, the damage by comparison would be subpar, and it still rings the question of can it carry the ghost touch item (both corporeal and incorporeal according to the enchantment) through/into walls with it. That is not to say that it wouldn't work for others, but for my purpose, the spear is preferred.

Or simply give them the grave trappings Ghost Ability, Undead Ghosts can still keep using their sets of items with that ability. They use their charisma modifier instead of strength score. You can check the ability in Undead Revisited p.25-26.

We have been trying to go mostly through the prd thus far, though this is a great idea if I were GMing. I will DEFINITELY look into this for future campaigns!

Alright then, thanks for the enlightenment guys. I glossed over the enchantment pages too much and missed that tid-bit... ^-^'

That is actually great, means no one can pull nonsense with a lvl 3 gunslinger with flaming burst (and no pluses) right out of the box. -_-' You know who you are. >_>

I'll get my character all sorted up and get this all corrected. THANKS AGAIN GUYS!!!

Also, OP, that 11,000 gp would get you dex to attack rolls, and CMB only I believe, though, I could be wrong.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting 11,000 gp?

If you are referring to the spear the price comes out to:

long spear:--------------------------+5gp
adamantine (weapon):--------+3,000gp
ghost touch (+1 bonus):------+2,000gp
=========================
-----------------------------------5,005gp

I haven't any other enchantments on the spear currently.

The only reason I am using a long spear is that A.) it is a simple weapon, allowing the Shadow (an undead creature) to be proficient with it and B.) it has one of the highest damage dice for a simple weapon.

Additionally, incorporeal creatures DO NOT have a strength score of 0, they simply do not have one. By your logic, Constructs would have a constitution of 0, simply because they don't have one. There is a reason that incorporeals do not get bonuses or negs for their attacks: They have no bonuses or negs to deal with because the lack of a score.

Additionally, the book specifies whether the subject matter affects attack rolls, damage rolls, or both, and in this case, it addresses the former more than the latter, meaning no Dexterity to damage rolls.

Thank you, I was quite certain, I just wanted to be 100% sure that I have been doing it correctly.

That being said, a +1 Ghost Touch Agile weapon isn't too far-fetch'd to obtain some time down the road, and while it costs 10K to get, it fulfills the same desire you were looking for, which is Dexterity to Attack and Damage rolls. Unfortunately, that only works with Finessable weapons, so...

Oh, You have no IDEA how many you have given me for this!(insert 1966 Grinch cartoon smile here) Sure, many of the weapons that are finesseable have a tad lack luster damage, but think of all the torment I could wreak upon unsuspecting players! >=)

Shadow

Str —, Dex 14, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 15

Can it even carry anything?

First, let's clear the air about incorporeal creatures: No incorporeal *monster* has a strength score. It's simply in their rules.(Universal Monster Rules) This is because they do not possess PHYSICAL prowess on the normal world.(you would not BELIEVE how many times I've had to go over that with people T-T)

Then, as per the definition of ghost touch, "The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time." ( http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/weapons.html#_weapons-ghost-t ouch) Therefore, it can WIELD the weapon (by extrapolating from the Construct Monster Creature Type and the fact that they use a Con score of 10 for any stat that makes it necessary) at an equivalent Strength score of 10.

However, CARRYING (on it's person without being wielded) is something I don't know and whether or not the shadow (or other incorporeal creature for that matter) can carry it on its person WITHOUT wielding the ghost touch weapon is another question entirely. This is a question that I have already pondered and I will ask as soon as I resolve this matter. Currently, in order to circumvent that mechanic, I carry the GT spear while my Shadow runs around through walls and uses its touch attack, having it regroup with me to wield the spear, dropping it should it need to go back to the touch attacks/flying through walls.

Green Smashomancer wrote:

The OP is asking specifically about a ghost touch spear.

Ah yes, he wrote that twice, didn't he? Sorry about that, carry on.

Four times actually, the Title, in the first sentence of the post, second to last sentence of the post, and the last sentence of the post, but it's all good.

Ok, now, correct me if I'm wrong but, an incorporeal creature wielding a weapon with ghost touch does NOT add it's Dexterity modifier to its damage rolls and ONLY to its attack rolls, correct?

In the Universal Monster Rules, it describes an incorporeal creature as using its Dexterity bonus on "melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB" since it has no strength score. However, since it does not specify whether it is just attack rolls or both attack AND damage rolls, one could argue that an incorporeal creature using a melee weapon would add its Dexterity to damage rolls.

I ask because I am using a Rogue/Shadowdancer and I have given my Shadow companion a ghost touch adamantine long spear. I have been only adding the dexterity to its attack rolls but I want to make sure because something like that would be nasty for when I am gming and I have an incorporeal creature wielding a ghost touch greatsword with 18 dex.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Incorporeal creatures can NOT manipulate physical objects so they can't use anything that is not ghost touch.

I think this would depend upon the item. I see no reason, for example, that a ghost couldn't read a book, provided that there were someone (including an unseen servant) to turn the pages for her. Since ghosts can speak, they can say command words, and although they couldn't wave wands, they could probably summon elementals via a brazier.

Similarly, a stone of good luck provides it's "possessor" with a bonus. I possess lots of things that I'm not actually carrying around with me at the moment, starting with my coffee cup. I hope you're not claiming that the cup on the desk in front of me isn't really mine; those would be fighting words.

At the other extreme, a ghost would have no more trouble carrying around Baba Yaga's hut than any other human-sized creature would.

I agree one would have to look carefully at any objects on a case-by-case basis. But 90% or more of the magic items aren't even eligible for "ghost touch" (how the hell do you price a ghost touch ring or wondrous item?) but many could still be used by a ghost.

Incorporeals have a strength score of 0. If they could even touch an item they are incapable of lifting, moving or manipulating anything.

Your argument is invalid.

That is not entirely true. If you read ghost touch, it directly says that a manifesting ghost can wield it against corporeal creatures and the universal monster rules state that they use their Dexterity score in place of their Strength for melee attacks, meaning that they do possess the strength to manipulate objects WITHOUT the use of magical means, mage hand for example, AND without a strength score. You should read the rules more thoroughly before stating that one's "argument is invalid."

Now, as for non-undead incorporeal creatures in Pathfinder specifically, there's no restrictions for resurrection on them other than if the 50% chance of non-damaging spells (for being incorporeal) not having an effect screws you over, you might end up having to put A LOT of money into that, which doesn't matter if they turn corporeal after death (as though through a spell-like effect). If it's just a familiar though, why not go through the process of just getting another familiar?

As for items, unfortunately, unless you can convert the item into an incorporeal form (ie spells converting a character into incorporeal form thus changing their equipment incorporeal as well) or enchant them with ghost touch, not much you can do. Now, if you did the stuff with the spells, most will revert any equipment you drop back to physical form.

Actually, The Elusive Jackalope copied and pasted straight from the bestiary. Not saying that concerro is wrong simply because Paizo changes the rules ALL OF THE TIME (making things hard for questions like this) but here is the page for you to check out yourself.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/creatureTypes.html