Need assistance with alter self ruling

[Wandering Wizard]

It is my understanding that the alter self spell, due to being a part of the polymorph subschool will also allow you to gain the new forms natural attacks. My DM disagrees with this point of view, but has agree that if I can show him an entry from a designer or a creative team member that alter self does provide natural attacks, then he will allow it.

So my question is can anyone help me find any posting agreeing that the alter self spell provides natural attacks.

Thanks

[Orfamay Quest]

Here's the entry on polymorph:

Quote:

Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

* Is Alter Self a polymorph spell? Yes, it's explicitly listed as Transmutation (polymorph).

* Do polymorph spells grant natural attacks? Yes, explicitly.

What more does your GM want?

[LazarX]

Wandering Wizard wrote:

It is my understanding that the alter self spell, due to being a part of the polymorph subschool will also allow you to gain the new forms natural attacks. My DM disagrees with this point of view, but has agree that if I can show him an entry from a designer or a creative team member that alter self does provide natural attacks, then he will allow it.

So my question is can anyone help me find any posting agreeing that the alter self spell provides natural attacks.

Thanks

What natural attacks are you trying to get? What form are you taking? Alter Self has a fairly narrow range on the forms you can assume.

[Imbicatus]

Alter Self is a polymorph spell, not an illusion spell. It follows the rules of the polymorph school. The polymorph school states you gain any natural attacks of the form. There isn't a developer faq on this because it's self evident.

[Imbicatus]

LazarX wrote:

Wandering Wizard wrote:

It is my understanding that the alter self spell, due to being a part of the polymorph subschool will also allow you to gain the new forms natural attacks. My DM disagrees with this point of view, but has agree that if I can show him an entry from a designer or a creative team member that alter self does provide natural attacks, then he will allow it.

So my question is can anyone help me find any posting agreeing that the alter self spell provides natural attacks.

Thanks

What natural attacks are you trying to get? What form are you taking? Alter Self has a fairly narrow range on the forms you can assume.

Troglodyte or Lizardfolk both give claw/claw/bite, which is more than sufficient.

[Weirdo]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

* Is Alter Self a polymorph spell? Yes, it's explicitly listed as Transmutation (polymorph).

* Do polymorph spells grant natural attacks? Yes, explicitly.

What more does your GM want?

Yeah, you're not going to get (nor should you need) more. The devs don't clarify things that are already perfectly clear. Alter Self doesn't specifically say in the description that you don't get natural attacks, so it follows the general polymorph rules that say you do get natural attacks.

[Paul Zagieboylo]

At a guess, Wandering Wizard's GM might be whining about a boggard's tongue attack, which has some weird special ability rules associated with it. I say it's still clearly a natural attack granted by alter self, but the fact that Sticky Tongue (Ex) isn't specifically granted by alter self may be a sticking point (hee hee) for a particularly obsessive GM who's a real stickler (ok, I'll stop) for exact rules.

[Smite Makes Right]

I would think alter self would allow a zero damage tongue attack with no special quality.

[Imbicatus]

Using a 2nd level spell to gain a touch attack with 10' reach? It's clearly overpowered.

[Paul Zagieboylo]

Now what I've always wondered is: why is there no "improved" version of alter self that gives you more special abilities such as a troglodyte's stench, or a kobold's natural armor bonus; or allow you to take the form of monstrous humanoids (c.f beast form III permitting magical beasts)? There's giant form for most of the more useful humanoids, but it's still a hole in the polymorph system.

[Imbicatus]

Paul Zagieboylo wrote:

Now what I've always wondered is: why is there no "improved" version of alter self that gives you more special abilities such as a troglodyte's stench, or a kobold's natural armor bonus; or allow you to take the form of monstrous humanoids (c.f beast form III permitting magical beasts)? There's giant form for most of the more useful humanoids, but it's still a hole in the polymorph system.

There is.

[Brotato]

Imbicatus wrote:

Using a 2nd level spell to gain a touch attack with 10' reach? It's clearly overpowered.

I was fairly certain your post was sarcasm, but I wasn't sure until I hovered over the link. I approve, carry on.

[Wandering Wizard]

Imbicatus wrote:

Alter Self is a polymorph spell, not an illusion spell. It follows the rules of the polymorph school. The polymorph school states you gain any natural attacks of the form. There isn't a developer faq on this because it's self evident.

I was trying to take a troglodyte form. Couple of days ago I saw a post where someone had reference a post from one of the designers, but unfortunately now I am unable to find it. Thanks for all the help.

[Paul Zagieboylo]

Imbicatus wrote:

Paul Zagieboylo wrote:

Now what I've always wondered is: why is there no "improved" version of alter self that gives you more special abilities such as a troglodyte's stench, or a kobold's natural armor bonus; or allow you to take the form of monstrous humanoids (c.f beast form III permitting magical beasts)? There's giant form for most of the more useful humanoids, but it's still a hole in the polymorph system.

There is.

Aha. I don't have UM so I usually turn it off when browsing the PRD. Still, this doesn't allow ordinary humanoids, although it really doesn't matter that much; the very few abilities that non-giant humanoids possess can be acquired in other ways. Thanks!

[Byakko]

Imbicatus wrote:

Alter Self is a polymorph spell, not an illusion spell. It follows the rules of the polymorph school. The polymorph school states you gain any natural attacks of the form. There isn't a developer faq on this because it's self evident.

The polymorph school also states:

Quote:

Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.

But apparently Alter Self doesn't grant Natural Armor and Bonuses to Ability Scores even though they're ALSO mentioned in the polymorph school description.

So why do natural attacks get special inexplicable treatment?
Very inconsistent, unintuitive, and downright confusing.

[Vatras]

The general entry about polymorph in general lists all possibilities, and the various spells don't grant all of them, which is what confuses some people.
When you check the entries for the polymorph spells, you will see what special attacks and abilities you gain. Polymorph for example says, that it works like alter self, if you wish to take humanoid form. None of the various polymorph options ever mentions natural attacks, only special abilities. So either none of the polymorph spells ever grants natural attacks (seems kinda silly, seeing that you get e.g. rend, and being a dragon, you attack with what if nor claw or bite?), because no entry mentions them, or all of them do as per the general entry. I think I rather go with the latter option.

Alter self did work differently in previous incarnations of D&D, and used to be a very minor spell, which did not change much. The entry for the 3.5 version is pretty much the same as for Pathfinder and lists everything, including natural attacks (there was no general entry then), and what you don't get, specifically more attacks than you normally do. Figuring out to-hit bonuses and which limbs you can use can be tricky with some shapes (there are six-armed humanoids around...).

[Bob Bob Bob]

Byakko wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Alter Self is a polymorph spell, not an illusion spell. It follows the rules of the polymorph school. The polymorph school states you gain any natural attacks of the form. There isn't a developer faq on this because it's self evident.

The polymorph school also states:

Quote:

Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.

But apparently Alter Self doesn't grant Natural Armor and Bonuses to Ability Scores even though they're ALSO mentioned in the polymorph school description.

So why do natural attacks get special inexplicable treatment?
Very inconsistent, unintuitive, and downright confusing.

Well, first off, there's this part in the spell:

Alter Self wrote:

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.

Second, it gives you a bonus of +0 to your natural armor. They probably didn't feel like they had to include it though.

[blackbloodtroll]

You can also choose the Strix, for flight.

[Artanthos]

Byakko wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Alter Self is a polymorph spell, not an illusion spell. It follows the rules of the polymorph school. The polymorph school states you gain any natural attacks of the form. There isn't a developer faq on this because it's self evident.

The polymorph school also states:

Quote:

Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.

But apparently Alter Self doesn't grant Natural Armor and Bonuses to Ability Scores even though they're ALSO mentioned in the polymorph school description.

So why do natural attacks get special inexplicable treatment?
Very inconsistent, unintuitive, and downright confusing.

You do get a bonus to ability scores. +2 strength if medium, +2 dex if small.