| UnitedWeStand |
Not really sure if this is the correct forum to post this in but we shall see.
Anyways, I've been trying and trying to figure out a way that the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype makes more sense for an actual dual wielding fighter than the base fighter class but I'm having so much trouble due to the lack of synergy between the archetype's skills.
For example,
Twin Blades
At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full-attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th.This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.
The archetype replaces the default fighter's weapon training with this piece of crap that requires you to full-attack to get the bonuses. "But they get more abilities for each level of weapon training like Double Strike and Equal Opportunity!"
Wonderful! NONE OF THEM WORK with Twin Blades. So in addition to removing the default fighter's bonuses from his REGULAR attacks and his attacks of opportunity, you don't even get your bonus on your special, archetype abilities.
In addition to that, take a look at Improved/Perfect balance.
Improved Balance (Ex)
At 11th level, the attack penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a two-weapon warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light weapon with the normal light weapon penalties.
This ability replaces Armor Training 3
Perfect Balance (Ex)
At 15th level, the penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1 for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand, treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light weapon penalties.
This ability replaces Armor Training 4
The way it is written if a Two-weapon warrior is using a one-handed weapon in his offhand, Perfect Balance GIVES NO BENEFIT whatsoever (unless I'm not understanding something here). Considering how long this archetype has been around without any changes I may be missing something in the actual use of this archetype but from where I'm standing it seems...lacking at best. Does anyone see something I'm missing?
| AncientSpark |
You are missing something in terms of Improved Balance vs Perfect Balance.
Note the wording on Improved Balance; it says "Alternatively". This means Improved Balance has two possible scenarios, of which only one apply depending on what your off-hand is wielding:
A) Wield light weapon in off-hand at -1 penalty.
B) Wield one-handed weapon in off-hand at -2 penalty (the normal penalty for light off-hand).
By contrast, there is no Alternatively in Perfect Balance, there is only one scenario:
A) Wield light or one-handed weapon in off-hand at 0 penalty.
That said, I do agree with you that Two-Weapon Warrior sucks, but, alas, most archetypes do. *cough*Holy Gun*cough* It doesn't help that, in general, you're gonna want to wield the same weapon in both hands, so it's not like replacing Weapon Training is helping, and who gives a crap about +1 to attack and maybe a size increase in weapons (which only turns out to be +1 damage). I mean, for god's sake, with the amount of Dexterity you need for a TWF build, Armor Training is actually better than normal, so why would you give it up?
| Chaotic Fighter |
Well there is a bit of a trade off. Since he can wield two one handed weapons at low penalty he can do something like wield two scimitars. Two good high crit range weapons. And since he can wield the same weapon in both hands instead of needing to use a dagger or a kukri or something all of his weapon focus and weapon specializations apply to both weapons. That +4 on two attacks easily equates to the same thing as weapon training and a single attack. Plus now you can two weapon rend on standard attacks which makes your standard attacks match a two handers attack easily.
| UnitedWeStand |
You are missing something in terms of Improved Balance vs Perfect Balance.
Note the wording on Improved Balance; it says "Alternatively". This means Improved Balance has two possible scenarios, of which only one apply depending on what your off-hand is wielding:
A) Wield light weapon in off-hand at -1 penalty.
B) Wield one-handed weapon in off-hand at -2 penalty (the normal penalty for light off-hand).By contrast, there is no Alternatively in Perfect Balance, there is only one scenario:
A) Wield light or one-handed weapon in off-hand at 0 penalty.
What makes you believe he gets 0 penalty? Perfect Balance says specifically you use "normal light weapon penalties" which implies the typical -2/-2 modifier, the same that Improved Balance provides. Perhaps it's simply worded strangely?
Well there is a bit of a trade off. Since he can wield two one handed weapons at low penalty he can do something like wield two scimitars. Two good high crit range weapons. And since he can wield the same weapon in both hands instead of needing to use a dagger or a kukri or something all of his weapon focus and weapon specializations apply to both weapons. That +4 on two attacks easily equates to the same thing as weapon training and a single attack. Plus now you can two weapon rend on standard attacks which makes your standard attacks match a two handers attack easily.
A typical fighter could also just wield a double weapon which would allow all his weapon focuses and what not to apply to both attacks.
| AncientSpark |
AncientSpark wrote:What makes you believe he gets 0 penalty? Perfect Balance says specifically you use "normal light weapon penalties" which implies the typical -2/-2 modifier, the same that Improved Balance provides. Perhaps it's simply worded strangely?You are missing something in terms of Improved Balance vs Perfect Balance.
Note the wording on Improved Balance; it says "Alternatively". This means Improved Balance has two possible scenarios, of which only one apply depending on what your off-hand is wielding:
A) Wield light weapon in off-hand at -1 penalty.
B) Wield one-handed weapon in off-hand at -2 penalty (the normal penalty for light off-hand).By contrast, there is no Alternatively in Perfect Balance, there is only one scenario:
A) Wield light or one-handed weapon in off-hand at 0 penalty.
It's weird wording, but it's 0 penalty. It would be -1 penalty if...
First, you took Improved Balance to move weapon category to light.
Second, you then used Perfect Balance to reduce penalty to -1.
HOWEVER, you don't have to use Improved Balance to move weapon category to light, you can use Perfect Balance's effect instead. Because Perfect Balance does not use the word alternatively, you get both effects. Thus, Perfect Balance reduces size to light (-2/-2), then it's reduced to -1, then it's reduced to 0 from Improved Balance.
Maybe your confusion is this; the light weapon effect of Perfect Balance DOES NOT exclude the other effects of Perfect Balance and Improved Balance that further reduce penalty.
| cuatroespada |
Actually, Perfect Balance doesn't allow you to wield a one-handed weapon as a light weapon. It says "If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand, treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light weapon penalties." That means he must already be doing so via some means like Improved Balance. Then it goes on to say that he uses the, not his, normal light weapon penalties which are -2/-2. So, Perfect Balance does nothing for someone using two one-handed weapons (which is stupid).