| Korthis |
looking it up for reference i see that an emanation works like a burst only last for a duration. bursts say that they can not effect someone with total cover (meaning they don't go around corners).
by this token, if you had a flashlight and cast darkness on the bulb would it not shine out like a flashlight of darkness as it emanates forward?
| MurphysParadox |
Well that's interesting. If I may reword your question into a scenario:
I have a bulls-eye lantern. These have special shutters that can allow light to be shown forth in a thin beam, like a flashlight. Instead of a wick, it has a small device that can securely hold a marble. I cast Silence on a marble and fit it into my modified bulls-eye lantern and close the shutters completely.
I now have a lantern of silence!
Given that Silence is an emanation, like Korthis states, then it cannot go around corners or effect targets which have total cover from the point of origin. If silence is in a lantern and three of the four sides are closed tight, then anything along the sides or behind have total cover from the source of the spell (the marble).
This gives me a pile of new ideas for Silence. A vest covered in cups, each of which is secured with the base against the wearer's body and the cup's opening pointing away. In each cup, place a silenced marble. The wearer is still able to speak (and more importantly, cast) normally but those around him are under the effects of silence.
Or a silence lantern as above for someone who wants to kick open a door and have the wizard next to him lob a fireball into the space.
| seebs |
There are some very strange implications of the way emanations are written.
Consider spells that keep things out of an emanation. Have a wizard stand in a small wooden box, and cast the spell. Then a creature which would be repelled by the emanation breaks the box.
What happens?
The wizard didn't try to force the creature into an object. The emanation suddenly moves to being ten feet out. Is the creature inside the shell, and unaffected because only the boundary has an effect? Is it pushed? Is the spell cancelled? No one knows.
| Korthis |
@ seebs If i understand you correctly you are asking
If you cast something like Antiplant Shell while in a box;
School abjuration; Level druid 4
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Effect
Range 10 ft.
Area 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
Description
The antiplant shell spell creates an invisible, mobile barrier that keeps all creatures within the shell protected from attacks by plant creatures or animated plants. As with many abjuration spells, forcing the barrier against creatures that the spell keeps at bay strains and collapses the field.
What happens if a plant creature breaks the box?
I would say the relevant part is "creatures that the spell keeps at bay strains and collapses the field."
You didn't intentionally force the creature against the field, but the creature ended up against the field because of your tactics. So indirectly you did force the situation so the field *pops* when forced up against the creature (which happens when the box breaks).
@ cheapy
Let's bring in the relevant section from the srd
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. a burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
If it were a spread, it would go around corners so a flashlight wouldn't work because the darkness would wrap around the flashlight and fill the area
If it were a burst, it wouldn't go around corners and would shoot directly out 60 ft
If it is am emanation, it wouldn't go around corners and would shoot out 60 ft until the duration runs it's course (or until covered up).
Now; Darkness
Darkness
School evocation [darkness]; Level antipaladin 2, bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, M/DF (bat fur and a piece of coal)
EFFECT
Range touch
Target object touched
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell's effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
This spell does not stack with itself. Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Doesn't say whether it is an emanation or spread (unless I skimmed over it too quickly) But
School evocation; Level bard 2, cleric/oracle 2, magus 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2
EFFECT
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
Target Restrictions burst (emanation)
Paizo Peripheral
This content is from material published by Paizo Publishing, LLC, but is not part of the Pathfinder Core Rules.
DESCRIPTION
The target of a wordspell with this effect word radiates darkness out to a range of 20 feet, negating all natural light sources and all magical light sources of a level lower than the wordspell. It reduces the natural light level by one step. A wordspell with this effect word has no effect on an area that is already dark.
Quite clearly says that it is an emanation and is the words of power equivalent to darkness. That being the case; it is safe to infer that darkness is an emanation and the idea should work.
| Cheapy |
My thoughts are that this line
(in other words, its effects don't extend around corners)
means that you lose the area. The reason I think this is due to the context of the section above it:
Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
If the burst/emanation behaved in the same way, I would've expected it to have mentioned the same rules for how to adjudicate the bending area. But it doesn't.
My disagreement with your view stems from that I don't see anywhere that connects "It's a burst" to "It shoots out in 60 feet", since that section doesn't have any language for how to figure that out. It just says that it doesn't extend around corners, which is in opposition to the above quoted text that does mention it.
Plus, I doubt something that is normally changed through expenditure of feats on metamagic, spell levels, and magic items is intended to work just with a simple conical object.
| MurphysParadox |
As soon as the impediment is removed, the spell extends to cover the newly accessible area. The wooden box breaking isn't any different than someone with silence cast on them opening a door. Before it was opened, the silence stopped at the door; when it is opened, silence extends through the doorway.
I believe it happens instantly because you would evaluate the affect of a spell on a square each time you ask the question "does it affect this square?" So each time it is asked, you would look at the situation at that instant and say whether or not the square has total cover from the source.
Excluding some of the fog spells, emanations don't mention the rate of spread for the initial casting; it is assumed to be instantaneous. Since these spells also fail to mention any conditions of spread rate, we continue with the original determinations of instantaneous.
As soon as the box is broken, treat the creature as if it was standing right there when the spell was cast. It gets whatever initial saves or effects would normally occur.
The other interpretation is that the emanation's initial shape which is defined at casting by which squares it can and cannot reach based on total cover rules would be set and unable to be modified during the spell duration. So if you cast silence on yourself while standing on the ground, then climb a ladder, anyone directly under you would be outside the bubble. Likewise, if you cast while standing with a pillar to your right, then you can move around with a open wedge in the silence spell directly to your right. This is obviously not the intent of an emanation.
HangarFlying
|
It's an interesting concept. To play devil's advocate, one tactic against spell casters is to cast silence upon yourself or an object you carry. If, for example, a cleric cast silence on his holy symbol (which happens to be hanging from a chain which is worn around his neck), one could reasonably argue that the emenation from the spell would only have a 180 deg arc, even though I can confidently say that a great majority of the groups out there would agree that the emenation would still be effective throughout the entire 360 degs.
Personally, I would rule that a silenced stone placed in a bullseye lantern would still give a 360 deg emenation. I think it's a great idea for a "directable cone of silence", though I think a specific wondrous item should be crafted in order to do it.
| seebs |
The thing with something like anti-plant shell or whatever is that nothing prevents things from being inside them, only from entering them. Normally you'd have to approach the creature, or it would have to approach you, but if you have solid objects blocking it, when you remove the object the area of the spell suddenly shoots out to some distance away. But it doesn't pass through the intervening space, it just suddenly starts being further out.
The question is whether the shell is only the surface of the emanation, or its entire volume.
| JoeJ |
I would think you could use mundane objects in the way described, with the caveat that it has to actually provide cover against the specific type of phenomenon or energy used. Two panes of glass with vacuum in between are cover against sound, and therefore presumably against silence as well. It won't stop light, however. By the same token, a black curtain provides cover against light (and presumably darkness) but not sound.
Put another way, emanations won't go around corners, but they can go through some objects - those that don't provide "cover". Given the nature of sound, a directed cone of silence would be very hard to build with medieval technology, and probably quite fragile as well, but it should be at least remotely possible. A flashlight (or darklight) just requires a metal tube.
Don't forget, however, that if the PCs actually do something like this, word will get around and pretty soon their opponents will be doing it too.