Say I wanted to build a tripping focused Lore Warden and it was somehow essential to have Improved Trip from level 1, so I grab Combat Expertise as one of my level 1 feats. What happens when I reach level 2 and receive it as a bonus feat? Since Combat Expertise only replaces Bravery 1 and not Bravery as a whole, do I just get the full Bravery line since nothing is being replaced? Also, if that is the case, would archetypes where the only conflicting area is that both modify Bravery be able to stack?
Thanks for any input!
Nope, you get nothing.
At 4th level you could use the Fighter's free retraining feature to retrain the first Combat Expertise into something else. Or you could use the retraining rules in Ultimate Campaign to retrain it at 2nd level.
Start off as say a Maneuver Master Monk (anything besides fighter that is good with combat maneuver works for this illustration) and then multiclass into Lore Warden. In that case, is the outcome the same?
I'm sure I could swing it by my GM in a home game, but I'm curious as to where the rules say otherwise, especially since
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
seems to indicate that if an archetype isn't replacing something, then things proceed as normal. So if I'm not gaining Combat Expertise (since I already have it) why am I losing access to part of a class ability?
You have traded away Bravery. Lore Warden does not have that ability. Instead you have Combat Expertise. You also have Combat Expertise from another source. These two incidences of Combat Expertise overlap.
You could argue that the ability to ignore the 13 Intelligence prerequisite for Combat Expertise is replacing Bravery 1, and that would work fine if your character didn't/couldn't get Combat expertise from another source (although why you'd play a Lore Warden with under 13 Intelligence is beyond me, but I digress...), but the issue of already having Combat Expertise (and clearly being able to meet the prerequisites because of it) would still lead to losing out for the sake of losing out with no real reason behind it.
If we take a look at the Alchemist in Society play, it's easy to see that Paizo's intent is to create as few truly "dead" bonuses as possible when it comes to class abilities (Alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat, in Society play that gets swapped out for Extra Bombs since they aren't allowed to craft potions anymore. Likewise, the Grenadier archetype is still viable for them even though they no longer have the Brew Potion feat, they simply lose Extra Bombs instead of Brew Potion for their Martial Weapon Proficiency). If absolutely nothing is being gained (and therefore nothing is being swapped out) where by the rules is there a problem with allowing the full Bravery progression?
If absolutely nothing is being gained (and therefore nothing is being swapped out) where by the rules is there a problem with allowing the full Bravery progression?
If you have to ask for something to be allowed then those are not the actual rules. It coudl be reasonable, you DM could allow it (I would allow it perhas), but thorse are not the rules.
I'm not asking for something to be allowed, I'm asking whether something is permissible by the rules or not and where someone's reasoning behind that is coming from.
As I showed earlier, if an archetype loses only part of a class ability due to replacement, then they receive the rest of it as if one step lower at the appropriate levels. In this particular case, bumping back Bravery 1 until level six instead of getting it at level two because you're getting Combat Expertise in its place.
If you already have Combat Expertise though, you aren't receiving a replacement for Bravery at level two, so you should be able to receive Bravery then as opposed to later since the replacement is non-existent. If anyone can provide a source that says otherwise then my argument is invalid, but as it stands I don't see why this wouldn't be permissible.
you have to find where it says that it IS permissible
Lore warden does not get bravery at level 2...EVER...no matter what...if we follow the rules
if you get combat expertise at level 1...knowing that you are getting it at level 2 from your archetype...that's on you...you get nothing at level 2 now :)
again when you want to do something with the rules, you have to find where it says you CAN do it...if the rules were a list of everything you couldn't do it would be unending