Humanoid PCs became Vampire PCs at level 13. As the GM, how can I give them challenging encounters?

[Andros Morino]

The title of this thread pretty much says it all.

The cliff notes are that during the Council of Thieves Adventure Path, one of the PC made a pact with a contract devil to be transformed into a vampire. He also turned the other character into a vampire. It's a 2 players game and the second player wanted to.

I already customized Book 6 heavily because their original characters were build with 30 points. I don't mind as a GM continuing this Adventure Path with more modifications and the players want to continue playing after the final boss. I'm also cool with that and I don't lack storytelling imagination.

Where I am lacking is mecanically wise... I want them to have challenging fights.

So from now on and with their new vampire/undead status, what kind of creatures (specific or general) should I throw more at them and what kind should I just not bother with anymore?

For example, I suppose that vampire hunters might hunt them later and that light casting clerics would be good options for building encounters.

Just like throwing at them weak minded humans would be pointless, so I suppose that the encounters will have way less humans than if they had stuck with humanity.

Any help will be appreciated. And by the way, I don't want to shelf the game nor give them a dhampir template to fix the problem. ;)

[Ascalaphus]

Long, long ago I Gmed a solo game with a 5th level wizard PC. I read the template as a +4 level adjustment, and even with that, found that the majority of monsters are helpless against a vampire. The vampire just has too many immunities/resistances/DR/ways to escape and regenerate. The wizard was able to basically tear apart enemies with his hands and get away with it.

Sorry, I don't have solutions yet, but I'm interested in what other people have to say.

[Apocryphile]

Have the encounters happen in daylight!

[prototype00]

I was just about to say, have the encounters happen in an open meadow in the sun. :)

prototype00

[Jamie Charlan]

The Dayman Cometh

[Alleran]

Apocryphile wrote:

Have the encounters happen in daylight!

And that's when the vampires start wearing rings enchanted with continuous protective penumbra.

[Andros Morino]

Alleran is right. Vampire 1 already acquired an object with protective penumbra before even turning into a Vampire (He wanted the Totemrix to turn him into a Vampire at first so he is really ito the Vampire thing.)

One solution might be to go with the slow track. That way, yes they will fight monsters with very high CR yet they won't benefit as much from the XP gained. Otherwise, the power creep gets out of hands.

[moon glum]

Well, since they have 30 pts worth of attributes (+2 CR), and are vampires (+2 CR minimum), and probably have more magic items than a level 13 character normally has (+1 CR), you should plan for CR 18 encounters as the base. Experiment and see what is tough for them, and what is easy.

It would make sense that they advance level wise at a slower rate. Immortal undead probably do that. Since CR 18 is average for them, reduce the experience gained from challenges by 5 CR. So, defeating a CR 18 encounter only counts as a CR 13 encounter for purposes of experience.

As to making the game actually fun, there is all sorts of cool stuff you could do. They may need to feed, which will attract the attention of a secret society of demon worshiping vampires who jelously guard this area because they don't want an inquisition led against them, and want exclusive access to the food there.

Rule that rings of sustenance and the like do not work for undead, as such items deal with physical hunger only. Here are some rules for vampiric hunger:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire

I would rule that because the players actually chose to become vampires and gained that status via an infernal pact, their hunger for fresh human blood would be extremely strong-- a potent tweak made by their infernal benefactors.

Also note that because the players are now monsters, both good aligned and evil aligned creatures are their enemies.

Check out some of the supplements, like Player Companion: Blood of the Night, and Classic Horror revisited.

For inspiration, you might look at the Vampire: The Masquerade game (huge amount of material there).

[Blakmane]

Sounds like you already have things under control, honestly. Just adjust the CR up and you're set. CoT is a great AP for this kind of shenanigan anyway.

Just as an aside, even with their higher attributes and templates, CR 18 encounters will probably rock their world. Slowly adjust upwards until you find a sweet spot.

Putting them on a slow track will also do this, albeit much slower so they'll probably roll through the next set of encounters (this isn't necessarily a bad thing).

Don't do both at once: adjusting their CR will already account for XP differences. No need to impose slow track too.

[Kimera757]

Alleran wrote:

Apocryphile wrote:

Have the encounters happen in daylight!

And that's when the vampires start wearing rings enchanted with continuous protective penumbra.

Enemies could dispel the ring. Only for 1d4 rounds, but that's 1d4 rounds of "holy crap!" (Staggered, then destruction.) Enemies might notice the "slightly in shadow" bit too, and if they're genre aware will do something about it. A vampire shouldn't go outside in the daytime, period. Of course, they may have interests they need to protect, or targets they can only get at in the daytime (such as an opponent who lives in a well-guarded house but works in a public place).

Looking at the whole template:

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AL: Any evil.

Paladins are good opponents then. Especially archer types (since vampires are generally very mobile).

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Type: The creature's type changes to undead (augmented). Do not recalculate class Hit Dice, BAB, or saves.

Minimal differences. I don't like "person" spells like Charm Person anyway. Vampires are nearly immune to Enchantment spells and death spells but little protects them from Conjuration.

Vampires are immune to exhaustion. Does a vampire barbarian even make sense? And if so, there's little cost to raging.

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Senses: A vampire gains darkvision 60 ft.

So do dwarves. No real issue.

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Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +6.

This is a pretty big buff. On the other hand, it's just numbers. Use higher-level opponents. It is a pretty big buff for the level adjustment (if there even is one).

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Hit Dice: Change all racial Hit Dice to d8s. Class Hit Dice are unaffected. As undead, vampires use their Charisma modifier to determine bonus hit points (instead of Constitution).

Unfortunately this buffs vampire wizards. Then again, wizards rarely have Charisma. Vampire sorcerers get kind of scary. What classes are we talking about here?

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Defensive Abilities: A vampire gains channel resistance +4, DR 10/magic and silver, and resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10, in addition to all of the defensive abilities granted by the undead type. A vampire also gains fast healing 5. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form (see below) and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can normally travel up to 9 miles in 2 hours.) Additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest, the vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round.

The channel resistance isn't a big deal, especially since Pathfinder has a sensible turn undead system, unlike its predecessor 3e.

The DR would have been a big deal in 3.5, but with equivalent bonuses quickly fades into the mist when facing intelligent opponents. Creatures that can't penetrate DR (eg earth elementals) aren't much of a challenge, unless backed up by a druid who can cast Greater Magic Fang repeatedly. Good thing it's a long-lasting spell. Alter encounters accordingly.

Fast healing isn't a big deal in combat, but means no resources need to be spent outside of combat. Adventurers must travel, so to keep gaseous form from being ridiculous ensure that PCs are challenged when finding places to sleep.

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Weaknesses: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from mirrors or strongly presented holy symbols. These things don't harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against that creature. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. After 1 round, a vampire can overcome its revulsion of the object and function normally each round it makes a DC 25 Will save.

Vampires cannot enter a private home or dwelling unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so.

Reducing a vampire's hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn't always destroy it (see fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight staggers it on the first round of exposure and destroys it utterly on the second consecutive round of exposure if it does not escape. Each round of immersion in running water inflicts damage on a vampire equal to one-third of its maximum hit points—a vampire reduced to 0 hit points in this manner is destroyed. Driving a wooden stake through a helpless vampire's heart instantly slays it (this is a full-round action). However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the head is also severed and anointed with holy water.

This is the most irritating part of vampire NPCs or even PCs, especially the invitation part. Vampires can hide out in hotels or other public places, but if you carry a coffin into a hotel, it draws attention! Bags of holding can carry lots of stuff, but I don't think you can put something that big into the bag. At the very least, vampires need to spend resources on such items.

And of course, you can't go out in the sun. This is such a devastating weakness I don't know why anyone would willingly submit to it. Only if your choice is "turn into a vampire or die" should a mortal consider this.

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Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire is not unduly harmed by running water.

No big deal. If anything, vampires should be faster.

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Melee: A vampire gains a slam attack if the base creature didn't have one. Damage for the slam depends on the vampire's size. Its slam also causes energy drain (see below). Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

The energy drain is actually pretty devastating. This is why I prefer the fleshbound vampire template: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/monsters/fleshboundvampire.html

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Special Attacks: A vampire gains several special attacks. Save DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 vampire's HD + vampire's Cha modifier unless otherwise noted.

Blood Drain (Su)

A vampire can suck blood from a grappled opponent; if the vampire establishes or maintains a pin, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage. The vampire heals 5 hit points or gains 5 temporary hit points for 1 hour (up to a maximum number of temporary hit points equal to its full normal hit points) each round it drains blood.

At-will Con-draining that isn't poison damage? Pretty devastating if your vampire is a fighter or other strong martial type.

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Children of the Night (Su)

Once per day, a vampire can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or 2d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.

These don't scale, and you can't even talk to them plus they're not intelligent so they don't make good scouts. Not a big deal.

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Create Spawn (Su)

A vampire can create spawn out of those it slays with blood drain or energy drain, provided that the slain creature is of the same creature type as the vampire's base creature type. The victim rises from death as a vampire spawn in 1d4 days. This vampire is under the command of the vampire that created it, and remains enslaved until its master's destruction. A vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit become free-willed undead. A vampire may free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

About as broken as Simulacrum. Isn't one PC a slave of the other, and therefore an NPC? Defeating powerful opponents and then turning them is something the PCs should be doing.

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Dominate (Su)

A vampire can crush a humanoid opponent's will as a standard action. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire's influence, as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet. At the GM's discretion, some vampires might be able to affect different creature types with this power.

The spell lasts 1 day/level, and this is at-will. It needs a nerf. Actually this is pretty broken in the hands of an NPC, as there's nothing preventing a single NPC from taking over a whole castle that way.

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Energy Drain (Su)

A creature hit by a vampire's slam (or other natural weapon) gains two negative levels. This ability only triggers once per round, regardless of the number of attacks a vampire makes.

Hardly balanced on the DM side, not at all balanced on the PC side. There's no immunity to this unless you're not alive either. Do your PCs seem likely to want to make slam attacks?

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Special Qualities: A vampire gains the following:

Change Shape (Su)

A vampire can use change shape to assume the form of a dire bat or wolf, as beast shape II.

This isn't nearly as good as casting Fly, since you can't cast spells or make good attacks while shifted. Great for scouting. Note that dire bats are really large, and wolves stick out when not in a forest.

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Gaseous Form (Su)

As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

You can be damaged by magic weapons, and your DR is weaker than your regular DR. Even the at-will flying isn't so great considering you could just turn into a bat.

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Shadowless (Ex)

A vampire casts no shadows and shows no reflection in a mirror.

Enemies will quickly figure out what you are and revoke invitations and the like. How genre aware the NPCs are determine how great a weakness this is.

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Spider Climb (Ex)

A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though under the effects of a spider climb spell.

This is incredibly powerful if the vampire PC is a spellcaster or archer-type, since you can often make yourself safe from enemy melee warriors while raining death on them.

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Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.

These are just numbers, and can be countered by using higher-level NPCs.

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Skills: Vampires gain a +8 racial bonus on Bluff, Perception, Sense Motive, and Stealth checks.

+8 to Perception and Stealth is actually kind of ridiculous, considering the level adjustment of the template. (Actually I don't know how level adjustment works in Pathfinder. Did they have to give up any levels?)

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Feats: Vampires gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness as bonus feats.

In the grand scheme of things, this isn't a big deal.

[Theconiel]

I expect that every paladin and good cleric for 100 miles is now the PCs' enemy. Someone in the group should be able to cast Gaseous Form to follow the vampires to their coffins.

[Alleran]

Kimera757 wrote:

Alleran wrote:

Apocryphile wrote:

Have the encounters happen in daylight!

And that's when the vampires start wearing rings enchanted with continuous protective penumbra.

Enemies could dispel the ring. Only for 1d4 rounds, but that's 1d4 rounds of "holy crap!" (Staggered, then destruction.) Enemies might notice the "slightly in shadow" bit too, and if they're genre aware will do something about it.

Since the players are close to Book 6, they are presumably at or around the level where they can cast contingency and/or get it on a scroll. So create a contingency where if you lose the protection of your daylight ring (such as from somebody realising that you have a daylight ring and explicitly targeting it with a dispel attempt), you immediately teleport to a secret underground lair (or some variant thereof - all it really needs is to be out of the sunlight).

Of course, the best defense would be to not let people realise that you're a vampire. Use disguise self and alter self where necessary, don't let yourself be spotted while you feed, pass off your abilities as spellcasting, and so on.

[Ascalaphus]

PF doesn't really have a level adjustment system, not like 3.x did. Templates like Vampire alter a character so profoundly that the normal level system just isn't a good guide for their capabilities.

Some monsters are just completely helpless against a vampire. It doesn't matter how tough your dinosaur is, it's not going to help against a vampire that can just become gaseous. And your [mind flayer style] monster that thrives on psychic attacks is hopelessly nerfed against an undead critter's immunity to mind-affecting abilities. Poison immunity is something ordinary PCs might be able to simulate now and then, but even that is powerful.

Fast Healing, Gaseous Form and Energy Drain means that vampires do very well on attrition. By using Dominate and Create Spawn they can easily make other people do their fighting for them.

My point is: these abilities and immunities are all at-will or continuous, and that makes vampires just too different from regular PCs, to make a level-adjustment really work. You can't really measure the power of a vampire using PC metrics.

That doesn't mean you should have never given the players the chance to play vampires - if it's something they really like, let them enjoy it. But you'll have to rediscover difficulty measurements.

I suggest just escalating CRs by 2-3 to start, and taking notes on what monsters give the PCs trouble and which ones don't. Don't randomly increase CR by +5, that might accidentally kill them if a particular monster isn't so affected by vampire weaknesses. It's better to start easy (let the players REVEL in their power!) and gradually increase difficulty until you hit the sweet spot.

I do think the slow XP track makes sense here; basically, the PCs should now be going through the AP faster than normally because they can overcome many enemies with far greater ease. So they're also not learning as many tough lessons.

[Gwaithador]

Let them have fun with their new found powers for a bit. Keep careful note of every obvious revelation that they are in fact undead in particular, vampires to boot. Once there's sufficient evidence, start bringing the carefully constructed party of vampire hunters against them- a group with a paladin, cleric, Inquisitor, ranger, etc. All geared to cleansing the world of vampires. Play them smart. Gathering intelligence first; learning where the vampires rest and striking as dawn breaks.

If the vampires are being absolute terrors, it wouldn't be improbable for the ole village mob to form or maybe a local lord starts hiring parties of adventurers as well. There was a reason in Vampire: The Masquerade that one was admonished to "remember the masquerade."

Speaking of vampire the masquerade, consider some of the themes from that game. It could be a bit of fun if you added some sort of "humanity" mechanic; so to hammer home the "curse" aspect of being a vampire- it's not all superpowers and coolness. You could also add your own hidden vampire society with its own rules or expectations, with the older vampires who have remained hidden not too keen on these whelps drawing lots of attention.

[Mojorat]

I only glanced through it but blood of the night has advice on this. It suggests heavily familiarizing yourself with how the dominate and control rules work.

If this were a homebrew you could shift the types of enemies there is lots of stuff to counter vsmpires.

One thing though give them time to enjoy the fruits of their new lives aquire vampire brides etc. Good guys wont instantly be aware of the change.

[Andros Morino]

Kilmera, you asked:

"What classes are we talking about here?" Vampire 1 is a Rogue Knife Master and Vampire 2 is a Cleric of Calistria.

"Do your PCs seem likely to want to make slam attacks?" To use the energy drain, possibly. Vampire 1 is big on making sneak attacks with his dagger. and Vampire 2 prefers to use the whip to threaten 20 feet and trip enemies (very annoying because I almost have to use a move action to get up with my martial opponents/monsters. Thus, they have the action economy advantage.)

"Did they have to give up any levels?" I don't think that the template asked for it.

You said: "revoke invitations". I haven't seen in the bestiary or blood of the night something about revoking invitations to private dwellings once it has been granted by someone with the autority to grant that. Are you sure about the revoking part?

To the others who talked about the Hunger rules, I am a bit disappointed that they only NEED to feed one per 13 days (because they have 13 Hit dice). There are smart ways to not leave a trail of corpses, including drinking dying ennemies.

And by the way, thanks to all of you for your help. The brainstorming really helps. And I'll probably keep this thread updated about what encounters work and which ones don't. A small payment for my gratitude towards the Paizo community. :)

[DrDeth]

You can't. They will walk over almost every normal encounter, but some minor mundane things will stymie them.

They are also more or less unkillable by HP damage.

[Andros Morino]

Well a quick update. We had the final fight for book 6 of CoT and here is what happened:

Council of Thieves:

The PCs are definitely OP with the Vampire template, the 30 points buy and the wealth!

I threw at them at the same time Eccardian (CR15 + mythic template = CR16), Melavengian (CR14), Gelugon (CR13), Bone Devil (CR9), Bearded Devil (CR5), Hellcat (CR7), Gylou (CR14), Erinyes (CR8).

Only the Gylou was a threat because while the others were not able to beat the AC of the characters or do enough damage to bypass their DR by a lot, the +22, 2d8+7 and the grappling skills of the Gylou was problematic at first for the players. The same with Melavengian with the +28 and 2d8+10... BUT!

Instead of hoping to roll a 20 on my dice for the other lower level devils, I should have perhaps used aid another to increase my chances to hit but it's too late now. The Vampire Rogue still can't be flanked (too bad) and he has Crippling Strike so he lowered the strenght of Melavengian first, then Gylou so latter in the fight they were not hitting him anymore.

When the fight was over, I had a Horned Devil (CR16) enter Golarion but while powerful, being alone meant that he didn't have a lot of rounds to do damage. The Crippling Strike incapacitated him.

Using devils was a good thing though. No domination for the vampire and with a strong CMD, the Vampire Cleric cannot succeed on every trip attack with his whip. The DR of the outsiders did help to give them a chance against the DR of the Vampires.

So the conclusion is that I need to throw at them CR16-17-18 monsters now, if possible in groups of 3 or 4 per encounter. :)