Would a Brawler (Fighter) be able to benefit from Gloves of Dueling?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Would a Brawler (Fighter archetype) be able to gain the full benefits of Gloves of Dueling, or does the name change on his Weapon Training class feature prevent him?


the name change stops it from working. Close Combatant isn't Weapon Training. I believe this got covered in an FAQ somewhere.

Scarab Sages

No, per this FAQ

Quote:
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.

The Brawler, like the Archer, does not reference Weapon Training in it's description.


Pyro_John wrote:
the name change stops it from working. Close Combatant isn't Weapon Training. I believe this got covered in an FAQ somewhere.

Not exactly

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qto

Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.

Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer" ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.


Imbicatus wrote:

No, per this FAQ

Quote:
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
The Brawler, like the Archer, does not reference Weapon Training in it's description.

Much appreciated.


But what about the part that lists selecting a more specific choice.

The Brawler gets Close Combatant for the Close weapons group, but no other group. It has a non-standard progression, same as the dragoon, (starts @3rd +1/+3, +1/+1 4 levels, instead of Dragoons @5th, +1/+2 every four levels).

He gets it earlier, but still with a single weapon group.

Scarab Sages

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

But what about the part that lists selecting a more specific choice.

The Brawler gets Close Combatant for the Close weapons group, but no other group. It has a non-standard progression, same as the dragoon, (starts @3rd +1/+3, +1/+1 4 levels, instead of Dragoons @5th, +1/+2 every four levels).

He gets it earlier, but still with a single weapon group.

The progression doesn't matter, it's the text of the ability.

The Dragoon's Spear Training specifically states "The Dragoon must take Weapon Training in Spears, and uses the word "Weapon Training" in the description of the ability.

Spear Training wrote:

At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon’s weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level).

The dragoon does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level.

Close Combatant does not state this.

Close Combatant wrote:
At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level).

Since there is no reference to weapon training the brawler doesn't get it. For comparison, here is the Archer's expert archer that is called out as not working in the example.

Expert Archer wrote:


At 5th level, an archer gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with bows. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th.

Grand Lodge

So, am I correct that gloves of dueling would also not work for a Polearm Master archetype Fighter?

Scarab Sages

kinevon wrote:
So, am I correct that gloves of dueling would also not work for a Polearm Master archetype Fighter?

Correct. The number of archetypes that actually have weapon training and can use gloves of dueling are much smaller than those that do not.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

But what about the part that lists selecting a more specific choice.

The Brawler gets Close Combatant for the Close weapons group, but no other group. It has a non-standard progression, same as the dragoon, (starts @3rd +1/+3, +1/+1 4 levels, instead of Dragoons @5th, +1/+2 every four levels).

He gets it earlier, but still with a single weapon group.

As noted it doesn't work. In my opinion, this was a bad decision. There are abilities that literally function exactly like Weapon Training that don't benefit from Gloves of Dueling when abilities that change Weapon Training do simply because the latter entries mention Weapon Training. If the more obvious analogs had simply said "This is Weapon Training for [specific weapon]" they'd also work just fine. They didn't though, likely because it was obvious and they could then save space, so now those abilities suffer as a result.

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