I'm going Human Arcane Duelist, but I want to take a 1-2 level dip to accelerate the archery process, probably at 2nd and 3rd. First I thought Lore Warden but settled on Zen Archer. Anybody got anything better?
Divine Hunter Paladin is definitely the way to go.
Agreed, Divine Hunter is pretty sweet. Charisma to all Saves means you don't need to worry about dumping Wisdom ever. Plus extra feats saves you some resources for other important stuff.
The problem you run into is delayed Bard level progression and the reduced CL reduction for whatever spells you can cast, but the Additional Traits feat allows you to pick two traits which will be very helpful; you can get a trait that bumps your Bard CL back up to snuff, meaning you only lose spell progression. The other one you can pick whatever you like, +2 to Initiative is always good, and stacks with everything else.
Although I personally believe a Bard is best when he is a caster-type, an Archer Bard is most certainly viable, and with the slightly increased BAB, you'll be a little more effective on the battlefield.
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I feel like shoehorning a character into a being a Paladin just to get Divine Grace is really terrible. Unless you had planned the character to organically become a Paladin...well frankly it just doesn't fit well in my opinion.
Seeing that archery is an incredibly feat intensive build I would suggest fighter over anything else, just to pick up the two feats over anything else.
With only doing dips the combat style feat from archery just isn't that good because you can pick up the same feats from fighter. Favored enemy just isn't that good unless your going to keep advancing it, or can be really confidant that you will be often fighting one creature type.
Divine Hunter gets precise shot, which isn't as good as getting two feats from Fighter. He also gets aura of good (which could be a liability), detect evil (meh), smite evil 1/day (which add cha to hit, and paladin level to dmg [1]), and lay on hands 1+cha times per day for 1d6. Now, I admit these perks are pretty good, but saddling yourself with the alignment restriction isn't something that suddenly works for any character.
Mechanically Paladin arguably offers more than anything else, but personally I would go with fighter.
Divine Hunter paladin or Zen Archer.
A two level dip in Ranger is pretty good for an archer bard as well.
I appreciate the input.
I had originally considered Divine Hunter as well - I'm a pretty big fan of Paladins - not just for Divine Grace but for full BAB, a daily Smite (bypass DR) and a little extra healing... but the character just isn't the Paladin type. He's also not going to be leaning THAT heavily on CHA (14 to start, 16 by 16th level not including gear).
Let's look at it objectively...
2 levels of Fighter:
2 bonus feats
+2 BAB
+3 Fort saves
2 levels of Divine Hunter:
Precise Shot as a bonus feat
+2 BAB
+3 Fort saves, +3 Will saves
Divine Grace
Smite 1/day
Lay on Hands (1d6) 3/day
Major alignment restrictions
2 levels of Zen Archer:
Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Perfect Strike and Weapon Focus as bonus feats
+1 BAB
+3 Fort, +3 Reflex, +3 Will saves
Minor alignment restrictions
I think the Paladin gets a slight nod in power, though its the Zen archer that actually gives me what I'm looking for - and without the character defining alignment restriction.
The power of zen archer versus fighter depends on when you take the levels.
The bonus zen archer feats aren't negotiable. You have a set list to choose from based on your level. So, it's very good to start off as a zen-archer and then multiclass into bard. If you're taking your first few levels in bard and then going to dip you will run into the problem that you already have the feats that Zen Archer will allow you to select.
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Ranger is probably the weakest, you only get one extra feat out of it. Fighter is solid. I dipped my melee bard into fighter two levels for the extra feats and +3 fort save (and took the trait to boost caster level to keep up). Bard spells still suffer heavily on progression tho, so consider that they will be well behind the curve. My bard is avoiding a lot of save related spells for that reason. I also had to go thin on charisma to make a solid melee build. The dip also depends if you want any restrictions on alignment.
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If not going Paladin, I wouldn't dip at all. Bard is realy solid all on its own, and like most spellcasting classes, dipping hurts that a lot. A single point of BAB and maybe a couple of Feats (which are all you get from most of those dips as compared to sticking Bard) just aren't worth it considering what you give up.
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Your still playing lawful as a monk.
Only for one level. after you gain the second you can change alignments with no loss of monk abilities. You can also be an Aasimar and take the trait to allow you to be a N or NG monk.
Regardless, Lawful isn't nearly as onerous as a Paladin code that you have to keep for ever even after you leave the paladin class.
Here's what I'm looking at - character is built to 17th level to run in an AP.
I figure that between the Arcane Duelist's bonus feats of Disruptive and Spellbreaker and the Snapshot line, I can wreak some real havoc on spellcasters. Monk levels are taken at 2nd and 3rd.
Human 15th level Bard (Arcane Duelist) / 2nd level Monk (Zen Archer)
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th & 8th)
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 14 (+1 @ 12th & 16th)
Traits:
Magical Knack
Reactionary
Feats:
1st - Point Blank Shot
1st - Lingering Performance
1st - Arcane Strike
2nd - Precise Shot
2nd - Perfect Strike
3rd - Improved Initiative
3rd - Rapid Shot
3rd - Weapon Focus: Bow
4th - Combat Casting
5th - Deadly Aim
7th - Arcane Bond
7th - Combat Reflexes
8th - Disruptive
9th - Snap Shot
11th - Discordant Voice
12th - Spellbreaker
13th - Improved Snap Shot
15th - Manyshot
16th - Penetrating Strike
17th - Improved Precise Shot
How you getting the Performance feat at 1st level if your taking Monk first 2 levels?
The pre-req is you must have bardic performance.Same goes for Arcane strike. A Human monk has 0 SLA to qualify him.
As stated, monk levels are taken at 2nd and 3rd.
He said he's taking the Monk levels at 2nd and 3rd, not 1st.
1st level he's taking Arcane Duelist Bard; he gets Arcane Strike as a Bonus Feat for free. The SLA requirement has no meaning, since they automatically get it regardless. He has a Performance, so he qualifies for that with his Human Bonus feat. From there, he can snatch Point Blank Shot as his 1st level feat.
At 2nd level, he dips into Zen Archer; he picks Precise Shot as his Bonus Feat, gets Perfect Strike for free to use with bows, and can Flurry with the bow if he wants (though kind of pointless, since he can't use Rapid Shot or Manyshot feats with it).
The next Zen Archer level grants him Weapon Focus as a Bonus Feat to go into a Bow of his choosing, Rapid Shot as his 2nd level Bonus Feat, and Improved Initiative as his 3rd character level feat.
From there he goes back into Arcane Duelist.
Ahh looks good then. Looking through a phone I sometimes miss things.
Let us know how it works out.
Yeah, phones can be a b!#@h sometimes.
The rest of the group is going to be a Human invulnerable Barb, a Kitsune Fey Sorcerer and a Goblin Brawler (Fighter)... gonna be hurting for healing, but other than that we look pretty solid.
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I wanna play a goblin that pretends he is a halfling. Uses disguise and wears a mask. Some goofy Alchemist. Gonna be my next home group character. I dont think there is a goblin boon in PFS. But home group would offer more feat options.
A wand and some cure will do well. I think y'all will be fine.
What AP is it your playing?
You don't need lingering performance. It's not good until level 7 at the earliest anyways because of the action cost of restarting performance. You don't need perfect strike. Weapon focus just makes up for the BAB you lose on a 2 level dip into a medium BAB class.
You delay all sorts of important stuff for this. Performance, spells, your arcane duelist bonus feats, getting your arcane bond so you can start enhancing your bow at half price, getting into medium armor. It's not worth it. Unless you mean you're actually starting at level 17.
For the type of character I want to play, I think it's worth it. You're leaving out some of the good stuff and forgetting that while I might be delaying some good things a little bit, I'm getting a lot of other good things right away.
Lingering Performance will help me get the most out of my Bardic abilities during my dip (I don't intend to restart anything, but with LP, 2 rounds will get me 4) and Perfect Strike is a free feat I couldn't swap out if I wanted to.
I wanna play a goblin that pretends he is a halfling. Uses disguise and wears a mask. Some goofy Alchemist. Gonna be my next home group character. I dont think there is a goblin boon in PFS. But home group would offer more feat options.
A wand and some cure will do well. I think y'all will be fine.
What AP is it your playing?
Making a run at a heavily modified (we think) Rise of the Runelords.
That goblin build dips MOMS and is a monster, even with that ridiculous Crane Wing nerf.
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I don't see why you are taking rapid shot. Flurry of bows is literally the same thing. Because of the monk flurry errata your flurry BaB stacks with your other classes' BAB for determining to hit. Monk flurry progression is "full BAB" with a -2 penalty to get a bonus attack. It's strictly better than rapid shot by a +1 to attack and doesn't cost a feat.
The only reason I can see you taking rapid shot is to do many shot as well, but with a build as feat starved as yours is, many shot will already be quite delayed. Up to you I guess if you want to spend two feats to only gain one extra attack. Now that I say it it actually doesn't seem that bad. But that will only kick in at 15th level. Definitely not worth it IMO.
I don't see why you are taking rapid shot. Flurry of bows is literally the same thing. Because of the monk flurry errata your flurry BaB stacks with your other classes' BAB for determining to hit. Monk flurry progression is "full BAB" with a -2 penalty to get a bonus attack. It's strictly better than rapid shot by a +1 to attack and doesn't cost a feat.
The only reason I can see you taking rapid shot is to do many shot as well, but with a build as feat starved as yours is, many shot will already be quite delayed. Up to you I guess if you want to spend two feats to only gain one extra attack. Now that I say it it actually doesn't seem that bad. But that will only kick in at 15th level. Definitely not worth it IMO.
How does Flurry of Blows stack with my second and third iteratives?
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How does Flurry of Blows stack with my second and third iteratives?I don't see why you are taking rapid shot. Flurry of bows is literally the same thing. Because of the monk flurry errata your flurry BaB stacks with your other classes' BAB for determining to hit. Monk flurry progression is "full BAB" with a -2 penalty to get a bonus attack. It's strictly better than rapid shot by a +1 to attack and doesn't cost a feat.
The only reason I can see you taking rapid shot is to do many shot as well, but with a build as feat starved as yours is, many shot will already be quite delayed. Up to you I guess if you want to spend two feats to only gain one extra attack. Now that I say it it actually doesn't seem that bad. But that will only kick in at 15th level. Definitely not worth it IMO.
Basically take your other classes' BAB, and then add BAB to that equal to your monk level, subtract 2 from all attacks and gain an extra attack. It does allow extra iteratives, and could potentially even grant you some.
EDIT: relevant FAQs:"Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20."
"Monk: How does a monk's improved BAB when flurrying interact with feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, which have different effects depending on your BAB?
The monk uses his improved flurrying BAB to determine the effect of those feats."
Especially with the second one, flurry is strictly better. I would suggest a thorough reading of the monk flurry of blows just to understand exactly what it is it gives.
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Seeing that archery is an incredibly feat intensive build I would suggest fighter over anything else, just to pick up the two feats over anything else.
It needn't be. -- A bard with Allegro and Inspire up is going to do better without Precise Shot than somebody else with it while unhasted in a party lacking a bard.
Archery feats grant you higher attack-bonus and extra damage with ranged attacks. Bards get that with everything, and grant it to their friends too.
Bard5 vs b3/f2
b3/f2 (human)
01 f1 PBS, RS, PS
02 b1
03 f2 WF:longbow, Arcane Strike
05 b3 FEAT
b5 (human)
01 Extra Performance, Spellsong
03 Arcane Strike
05 FEAT
* the multiclass is more offensive in the first round of combat -- but makes a Rapid Shot full-attack at the cost of inspiring himself and the party (essentially not using three-fifths of his build). OoC, the straight class is much more useful in the face role and while exploring.
* At 7th level, the straight class bard Inspires as a move and casts Allegro as a standard in the first round of combat. In the second round, his two hasted attacks are +1/+1 versus the -2/-2 Rapid Shot penalty the multiclass is eating for his two.
How does Flurry of Blows stack with my second and third iteratives?I don't see why you are taking rapid shot. Flurry of bows is literally the same thing. Because of the monk flurry errata your flurry BaB stacks with your other classes' BAB for determining to hit. Monk flurry progression is "full BAB" with a -2 penalty to get a bonus attack. It's strictly better than rapid shot by a +1 to attack and doesn't cost a feat.
The only reason I can see you taking rapid shot is to do many shot as well, but with a build as feat starved as yours is, many shot will already be quite delayed. Up to you I guess if you want to spend two feats to only gain one extra attack. Now that I say it it actually doesn't seem that bad. But that will only kick in at 15th level. Definitely not worth it IMO.
Basically take your other classes' BAB, and then add BAB to that equal to your monk level, subtract 2 from all attacks and gain an extra attack. It does allow extra iteratives, and could potentially even grant you some.
EDIT: relevant FAQs:
"Monk: The monk rules for flurry state, "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level." How does this interact with BAB from class levels and racial Hit Dice? Does a multiclassed fighter 19/monk 1 flurry as if his BAB were only +1?
A monk using flurry treats his BAB from monk levels as equal to his monk level. He still adds BAB from other sources (such as other classes or racial Hit Dice) normally to this total.
So a fighter 19/monk 1 has a normal BAB of +19. When he flurries, he treats his monk BAB as +1 (for his 1 level of monk) and still gets BAB +19 from his fighter levels, for a total flurry BAB of +20.""Monk: How does a monk's improved BAB when flurrying interact with feats like Power Attack and Combat Expertise, which have different effects depending on your BAB?
The monk uses his improved flurrying BAB to determine the effect of those feats."Especially with the second one, flurry is strictly better. I would suggest a thorough reading of the monk flurry of blows just to understand exactly what it is it gives.
I'm still confused.
At 16th level, a Bard 14/Zen Archer 2 has a BaB of +11/+6/+1 and thus gets three attacks with a full attack action. What would my Flurry of Blows BAB if used with a bow?
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At 16th level, a Bard 14/Zen Archer 2 has a BaB of +11/+6/+1 and thus gets three attacks with a full attack action. What would my Flurry of Blows BAB if used with a bow?
If you used Flurry Of Blows with your Monk 2/ Bard 14, you would take the BAB from Bard 14 (+10/+5) and add your Monk Level to it making it +12/+7/+2. You would then add an extra attack and reduce all attack by -2, leaving you with +10/+10/+5/+0 on a full attack.
If you were to use Rapid Shot instead, you would take your combined BAB of +11/+6/+1, add one attack, and reduce all attacks by 2 for +9/+9/+4/-1
Flurry is the Superior option if you are not using Manyshot, as you get +1 as you have full BAB from monk levels on a flurry.
At 16th level, a Bard 14/Zen Archer 2 has a BaB of +11/+6/+1 and thus gets three attacks with a full attack action. What would my Flurry of Blows BAB if used with a bow?If you used Flurry Of Blows with your Monk 2/ Bard 14, you would take the BAB from Bard 14 (+10/+5) and add your Monk Level to it making it +12/+7/+2. You would then add an extra attack and reduce all attack by -2, leaving you with +10/+10/+5/+0 on a full attack.
If you were to use Rapid Shot instead, you would take your combined BAB of +11/+6/+1, add one attack, and reduce all attacks by 2 for +9/+9/+4/-1
Flurry is the Superior option if you are not using Manyshot, as you get +1 as you have full BAB from monk levels on a flurry.
I've read that entry a dozen times and never realized that's what they meant - thank you for spelling it out for me.
Looks like I have the luxury of moving Rapid Shot down the tree a bit, but if I want to take advantage of the Snap Shot line, I still have to take it. One of the concepts of the character is that he can wreck havoc on spell-casters within his threat range.
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At 7th level the bard already has access to the spell hast, why would he use allegro?
If he had Allegro from 4th, he might not take Haste until 8th (when he uses his swap ability to convert Allegro to something else).
In any event, the effect is the same: the straight class is +3 over the unhasted multiclass rapid shooter most levels for the same number of shots, and is a better bard overall. The multiclass only dishes realistic-situation DPR when somebody else is buffing him (otherwise, if he buffs, then he forfeits his first round full-attack advantage over the straight class).