Weapon Finesse Question

[poundpuppy30]

I read this feat and it's listed as:

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

I'm wondering if the Kusarigama would fall into this category since it has a Chain? Does anyone know if this feat has been expanded to include this weapon anywhere? I'm trying to use this weapon on a tripping monk combo and wanted to know if I need to get weapon finesse, agile maneuvers or flury's fall.

[Starglim]

A kusarigama is not a spiked chain.

If you use it as a double weapon, the off-hand end is a light weapon and is finessable. You can't use Weapon Finesse with the end in your primary hand, which counts as a one-handed weapon, or if wielding it as a one-handed weapon in two hands.

[poundpuppy30]

So then I need agile maneuvers then?

[HectorVivis]

With a kusarigama, you'll need agile maneuver for each head of the weapon to use your dex to maneuver. Weapon finesse would only apply to the "light head" of your kusarigama.

This can be useful.

[Kazaan]

When using a double weapon, the head used as your off-hand only counts as light "for determining TWF penalties", not for any other purpose. So it isn't within the rules to finesse just any double weapon's off-hand head; it isn't light for any and all purposes. However, certain weapons explicitly specify they behave as if wielding a pair of actual light weapons. The Kusarigama doesn't include this caveat, but the Double-Chain Kama does

PRD wrote:

Kama, Double-Chained: This weapon comprises a pair of kama connected with an 8-foot length of chain. The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.

Kama are light weapons so, if the weapon can be wielded "as if wielding a single kama in each hand", then you are, effectively, wielding a pair of light weapons, rather than a double weapon that treats you as wielding a light off-hand "for the purpose of determining TWF penalties". Ergo, you can finesse a chained kama when wielding it as a pair of kama, though not when you use it as a reach weapon. Kusarigama, however, lack this so it would be only be by houserule that they can be used in such a manner.

Also, mind you that for Trip, Disarm, and Sunder, they are made with a weapon so if your weapon is finesseable and you have weapon finesse, these maneuvers automatically benefit from Dex to CMB rather than Str; Agile Maneuvers isn't needed. You would only need AM if using a non-finesse weapon or are using a maneuver that isn't weapon-based.

[HectorVivis]

Good point x2.
Weapon finesse shouldn't work, you're right.

I'll go with the idea that the double-chained kama is more interesting for you, OP, and I'll rule that weapon finesse works with it, so you don't have to take agile maneuvers.

Meh, I hate how they wrote a lot of eastern weapons. Most of them are confusing, and it's really annoying. Devs should errata them.

[Imbicatus]

I hate how a lot of eastern weapons work in real life. Most of them are confusing, and it's really easy to hurt yourself using them.

That what happens when you make it illegal to own weapons, you get people who make weapons out of farm implements, because of the "Dear god, who would be stupid enough to use THAT as a weapon????" factor.

[poundpuppy30]

Can you make one of the kama be non-sharp so it can do bludgeoning damage? That way you have one that gives S and other gives B type damages.