Grapple - move action and why not constrict?

[Schade]

Two questions here:

1) I know as part of the standard action to maintain a grapple you can move half your speed. But this is just the standard action for this round - can you still utilise your move action for anything in this round - because you have technically already 'moved' even if it was with your standard action I would assume you cannot?

2) The wording of grab and constrict suggest a creature might choose not to constrict. I am just trying to get my head around why you would make this choice? What is the benefit of not constricting?

Thanks as always!

[Mojorat]

movement, and move action are not the same thing. for 1) he can use his move action for anything that does not require movement. 2) the answer is you dont always want to kill someone sometimes you need prisoners or a partymember gets dominated.

[Schade]

Thanks for the reply - now that I think about it 1) was a bit of a obvious one - I wasn't thinking straight.

Regarding 2) - I feel like there are some more complex parts of the rules (If I am interpreting them correctly) that might make not constricting more meaningful.

From what I understand - a creature with grab and constrict can do 3 types of damage as part of the grapple.

A) Normal Damage as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple
B) Grab Damage (automatic damage that applies as part of the successful grapple check)
C) Constrict Damage (applies if the controlling grappler chooses to 'constrict')

I initially thought A) and B) were the same thing - although opinions on this are varied and I can find no conclusive answer. My initial interpretation was that Grab was not meant to be an ability that triggered 'damage' - but just a free grapple combat maneuver, after which A) and C) are the mechanisms through which damage is applied. From what I read here I am wrong on this though - and it is generally accepted that B) stacks on top of A).

Grab is written a bit poorly and could be interpreted either way - but my understanding is that if you constrict then the B) does not apply - although the wording "Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well" is quite ambiguous and I can see how it could be interpreted as both B) and C) applying.

The Constrict rules seem to align with an interpretation that Constrict damage applies as well as normal Damage done as part of the successful check to maintain the grapple.

I guess coming back to my original point - it seems not using C) means B) does apply automatically - so you would not really be holding back on any damage? Why would you do it?

The more I try and get my head around this - the more it feels like Constrict is pointless if my interpretation of the rules are correct. I feel that for the Constrict ability to make any sense at all either:

- All 3 types of damage should apply in one round; Or

- RAI never meant to give 'Grab' its own damage ability, but was just rehashing the standard Grapple rules in this section "If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold"

[Schade]

So no one wants to weigh in on the finer points of grapple>grab>constrict?

Maybe I should have named the thread more appropriately :-)

Or maybe this discussion has just been done to death and everyone is sick of it - I have found a number of posts but cant seem to find any definitive answer.

[reyyvin]

Schade wrote:

Thanks for the reply - now that I think about it 1) was a bit of a obvious one - I wasn't thinking straight.

Regarding 2) - I feel like there are some more complex parts of the rules (If I am interpreting them correctly) that might make not constricting more meaningful.

From what I understand - a creature with grab and constrict can do 3 types of damage as part of the grapple.

A) Normal Damage as part of the standard action to maintain the grapple
B) Grab Damage (automatic damage that applies as part of the successful grapple check)
C) Constrict Damage (applies if the controlling grappler chooses to 'constrict')

Where are you getting "B"? Grab is an additional grapple check as part of an attack; if an attack has grab, you get a free grapple check when you hit with the specified attack. If you check out the initial round of grapple, there is no mention of damage. With Grab, the PRD specifies that the hold does no damage, unless the creatures has constrict. Constrict is not a separate attack that deals damage; it triggers when you make a successful grapple check. The Grab only grants the grapple check.

So, you make an attack roll, hit, then deal damage. Then you make your grab attack; if it is successful, it triggers Constrict.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/universalMonsterRules .html#_grab

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html#_con strict

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#_grapple

also check out the chart from the SRD (very helpful)... click on the chart next to what this link brings up:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple

In a normal grapple, you only start doing damage with a grapple check when you maintain the grapple with a CMB check. Normally this is on the second round (unless you have greater grapple); damage is one of the options available as part of the standard action. A successful grapple check also triggers Constrict damage (allowing you to do damage twice... or damage once and gain an additional effect)

Since you are not making an attack roll with the selected attack that has grab, you don't get another grab attempt.

Schade wrote:

generally accepted that B) stacks on top of A).

Not exactly

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nbxa?Grappling-with-Grab-Do-Grab-and-Constrict #1

If you carefully read the the first 2 posts, they're referring the the 'grab' damage as the damage on the second round done with a successful grapple check.

read KwwB's first post: that is the correct damage (except on the 2nd round and after, the snake gets an additional +5 to maintain, as KwwB later posted)

here are a few others; none of them indicate that the Grab itself does damage.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2novp?Damage-and-actions-in-a-grapple-Grab-abil ity#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2knvn?Grab-and-Constrict#1

Oddly, on this one, the initial interpretation is correct; Eridan confirms this and then contradicts himself in the same post. The last poster corrects Eridan in that Grab does no damage:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pvwe?Dealing-damage-while-grappling-with-grab# 1

there are more and the consensus is the same. Attack, damage, grab, constrict (damage).

Schade wrote:

Grab is written a bit poorly and could be interpreted either way - but my understanding is that if you constrict then the B) does not apply - although the wording "Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well" is quite ambiguous and I can see how it could be interpreted as both B) and C) applying.

all Grab is saying is that you get Constrict damage here. The Grab normally deals no damage, but that the Constrict deals damage as well (in addition to attack and 0)

Schade wrote:

The Constrict rules seem to align with an interpretation that Constrict damage applies as well as normal Damage done as part of the successful check to maintain the grapple.

correct. On a successful grapple check (with Constrict), you get a) Constrict damage + b) choice of: damage, movement, pin, or tie up.

more people aren't adding to this, probably because this has been covered many, many times before. Also, the title.

[Mojorat]

Grab doesn't do extra damage. A creature with grab gets a free grapple. The auto damage is the point of constrict.

[Schade]

Thankyou for the well thought out replies - I totally agree with your interpretation to be honest, and this is how I play it.

But I have read a multitude of threads that referr to 'grab damage' and insist that 'Grab' has a damage component on top of the normal 'Damage Action' to maintain the grapple - all due to that confusing sentence in the grab ability:

"If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold."

This 'automatically' seems to be interpreted as additional damage to the normal damage action.

Some even take it further and interpret the next sentence to mean that all 3 apply in one round:

"Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well"

Here is one such thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l5wz?Grab-the-grapple-actions

I have found at least a dozen more over the last few days where 'grab damage' is referred to - and many instances of GM's that allow all 3 in a round of combat.

The reason I am trying to nail this down is that I am writing an article for our website attempting to explain all of the Grapple Rules for Pathfinder in a way that new Players/GM's can understand and confidently play - so I am really trying to get it right!

Thanks again