Half-blood extraction on a human with racial Heritage(Half-orc)?


Rules Questions


So in the rules for Half-Blood extraction "You transform the target half-orc into a full-blooded orc. The target loses all of its half-orc racial traits and gains the orc racial traits."

Does this mean i'd keep my human racial traits?

it's just a really interesting thing for me to consider

Grand Lodge

Similar discussion here.


Well the implication of transforming into a full orc would be you lose all human racial traits... i guess? Its a really flavourful spell that is entirely in GM fiat territory.

Grand Lodge

A full-blooded orc doesn't have human racial traits. The second sentence is merely an explanation for extra clarity.

Grand Lodge

Remember, Racial Heritage says "Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race."

So, even if you become full Orc, the feat still allows you to count as Human.


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But you don't meet the preregs for the feat anymore...

Grand Lodge

Torbyne wrote:
But you don't meet the preregs for the feat anymore...

You do, by counting as Human.

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
But you don't meet the preregs for the feat anymore...
You do, by counting as Human.

But you don't count as human unless you gain the benefit of the feat, which, lacking the prerequisites, you don't.


I believe that my DM would rule since the implication is that you become a full blooded Orc you would lose your Human racial traits.

The only other alternative really is:

Even though you mechanically count as Orc the spell just fizzles and doesn't do anything because you actually aren't an half-orc.

Grand Lodge

Starglim wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
But you don't meet the preregs for the feat anymore...
You do, by counting as Human.
But you don't count as human unless you gain the benefit of the feat, which, lacking the prerequisites, you don't.

Ah, but the feat says you count as Human.

Normally, you would need to count as Human first, and when you took it, you did. Now, you have the feat already, and the feat allows you to count as Human.

So, the feat, in this very particular case, creates the prerequisite needed.

Grand Lodge

Static Hamster wrote:

I believe that my DM would rule since the implication is that you become a full blooded Orc you would lose your Human racial traits.

The only other alternative really is:

Even though you mechanically count as Orc the spell just fizzles and doesn't do anything because you actually aren't an half-orc.

That's a whole lot of houserule my friend.


Feats wrote:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself.

Come on BBT.

You must meet the prerequisites of a feat before you can use it. The prerequisite is 'Human' and you are not a human. Secondly you are reading the feat wrong. With the feat you count as another race in addition to human. In this example you are an orc and you want to count as a human. That is not possible because you must be a human.

Racial Heritage wrote:

Prerequisite: Human.

Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.

I know BBT has a different view on the rules and he will try to discuss until this thread reaches 2000 posts. Lets start ..


No bootstraping. The FAQ for UC sets the precedent that you can't use the benefit of a prestige class to fulfill the requirements for said prestige class so that can easily be extended to a feat. You need to meet the prereq for the feat without its benefit in order to continue qualifying for it; that's just basic common sense. Thus, this gets us into a Catch-22; The Human is a valid target for HBE because he counts as a half-orc, but when the spell takes effect, he no longer counts as a human as he doesn't have the Human subtype. So he may "flash" briefly with the visage of a full-blood Orc, but it will quickly revert as the spell effect paradoxes itself out of existence.


I think this is a need to accept abilities are wordednfor the race intended to take them. If you somehow qualify in a way not intended you likely need to either assume it doesn't work or do mental adjustments to make it fit.

Grand Lodge

Well, I suppose you could retrain the feat, to Racial Heritage(Human).


Wouldnt qualify for Racial Heritage(Human) as a full blodded Orc though. This scenario was actually brought up a while ago in the whole "I want a tail!" thread. SKR made me feel bad about that. Thanks for bringing it up again guys! :(

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