I'll admit I've usually just "winged it" when it came to Wealth by Level, and it's come out okay. But I've got a player who's pushing the soft boundaries I set pretty hard, so I'm trying to set things right with WBL.
So I'm looking at the chart on 399 of CRB, and according to the chart, a character shouldn't have a 20,000 GP item before level 7. This particular PC is pretty keen on attaining a Ring of Wizardry, Type I, which would double his 1st level spell capacity.
I can see how this is really powerful, but should it really take up almost the entire WBL for a 7th level character? I'm not sure how valuable double the number of 1st level spells is once you reach 7th level, but it doesn't seem like it would be the most prized item of said character.
Opinions/advice?
In Rotrl It was my experience and I have heard similarly from others that characters will often be 30-50% above wbl with no complications. Just be careful what items are found in random treasure and I think all will b well.
Okay, thanks for the advice.
With this item, my current character would have 24 1st level spells at level 7.
The build your character wants should be a determining factor. If your character is evil, they just need to rob some level 1 npcs (wbl seems wrong for npc L1)
I'll admit I've usually just "winged it" when it came to Wealth by Level, and it's come out okay. But I've got a player who's pushing the soft boundaries I set pretty hard, so I'm trying to set things right with WBL.
It boils down to this:
If you are encouraging your players to take Item Creation Feats then do not use Wealth by Level, but instead go by treasure standard and force make it so the vast majority of their loot is going to have to be sold at half value.It costs 1/4 to make a non-magical item, and it costs 1/2 the base price for magical items. This means a character can make that suit of Masterwork Full Plate (1,650 gp) for 1/4 the price (412 gp, 5 sp) if they succeed on their skill checks.
It also means they can make said armor into a +2 version (4,000 gp) for 1/2 the price (2, 000 gp).
The Treasure by CR system is a more advanced analogue to WBL, but WBL is good if your PCs are not needing to live in the world.
So WBL is great if no one is allowed to take item creation feats.
Treasure by CR is great if Item Creation Feats are HEAVILY ENCOURAGED, because otherwise people will be disadvantaged by buying things a full price.
Does that all make sense?
Just try to make sure that there is at least 20 CR (APL) encounters worth of treasure in a module that they PCs will find. Keep in mind No, Half, Standard, Double, Triple, and Quadruple standard, but I'm not sure if the last exists.
If you want to have loot be encouraged for the PCs, then fill the dungeon with consumables that they can use to make it easier or sell for their money.
|
With this item, my current character would have 24 1st level spells at level 7.
How is that, exactly?
Wizard at 7th has 4 1st level, doubled becomes 8 plus ability bonus and school. Specialization School and Ability bonus spells are not doubled.
Sorcerer at 7 has 6 1st level spells, which becomes 12 plus ability bonus.
A 44-45 Ability score grants +5 1st level spells.
I am not seeing how you have 24 first level spells.
Unless of course you have a few dips into arcane classes that would all benefit (Wizard/Magus/Bard/Sorcerer).
Personally you do not have to follow WBL but the encounters should be adjusted if your group needs the money. Also WBL will be well(+ or - 2) below and above what the party has at times in my experience. I also do not lower it just because someone took magic item creation feats. I feel like that is cheating the player. If a GM does not want me to benefit from the feats with extra gold then I would feel better if he just banned the feats.
Fomsie I couldn't figure out how she gets 24 but a Sorcerer gets to 6 1st level spells at 4th and with her three remaining levels if she took Magus she would receive 3. Assuming the ring multiplies them both that would be eighteen. You would receive bonus spells from Int and Dex so that is at least 2 more, 3 if one of those stats is a twenty. 21 is mighty close.
my experience is it really doesnt matter how much you are above WBL it matters /what/ they have.. if that makes sense.
lots of items which do fun and neat things especially if tied to the story are great and will have less impact probly than a character that fills their big 6 items perfectly for his wbl.
Or in short, a dwarf fighter with 10 dex wearing mithril plate because its dwarvish... gets 9 ac... until he sells it it has no bearing on his power level.
With this item, my current character would have 24 1st level spells at level 7.
How is that, exactly?
Wizard at 7th has 4 1st level, doubled becomes 8 plus ability bonus and school. Specialization School and Ability bonus spells are not doubled.
Sorcerer at 7 has 6 1st level spells, which becomes 12 plus ability bonus.
A 44-45 Ability score grants +5 1st level spells.
I am not seeing how you have 24 first level spells.
Unless of course you have a few dips into arcane classes that would all benefit (Wizard/Magus/Bard/Sorcerer).
Gnome
STR 5
DEX 10
CON 10
INT 17
WIS 7
CHA 20+1 at level 4 and a +2 item in int means he'll have 2 bonus spells in both sorc and wiz with Sorc 4/Wiz 3 gives him spells 6/4 for 10. Doubled is 20 plus the 4 is 24 spells.
A wizard only gets 2 1st level spells at 3rd level.
Personally I think that player of your is very pathetic. The reason why is because a level 7 Wizard should have enough spell to defend himself even without a powerful item like the ring or wizardry. If you want to spam spell, play a sorcerer with Arcane bloodline. The meaning of Wizard is to only cast spell when it counts, when it does, it's game changing. Even a cantrip can turn the table, that's what make wizard a wizard.
Secondly, does that character deserves to have more than other players? If not, are you going to balance it out so it's fair for others as well? I think it is only fair if he does something that deserves it. Just like pathfinder spell casters compare to old school D&D wizards. The old school wizards only get one spell per day, that's why they deserves to be god like later on, but in pathfinder, less so, yet they still far more powerful than martial. Just because it's magic.
Lastly, I play a lv 8 fighter, the most gear dependent class in the entire game. I'm playing in a world full of magic, but I'm still surviving with less than 3000gp worth of gear by using pure tactic and wit while no magical equipment is available on me. I don't see how can a wizard need a magical ring that only benefits him on his lv1 spells, if he picked the right spell in a right time, it's pointless to give it to him. If he spend it on something else or give it to his team mate who is more gear dependent, it will be far more effective. However, they should have more wealth before that so they can survive better by buying potions, scroll and other equipment.
Sorry if I sounded offensive, but I truly believe if players with spell casters that have lv4 spells or higher should be grateful of what they have according to WBL. Most powerful spell in pathfinder can be casted in a term and you can cast another in the next round. Giving them more capacity of magic too early will encourage them to spam spell more often. That is only for pathfinder, if you playing something that has more balance spell cast system like thieves world than it's another story. And that's what I think.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Caster's have a much easier time getting by with less loots than a martial. It's really martials that suffer being way behind wbl.
If players are just sticking with things that they find then they should be over WBL, but then their items will not be especially optimized.
If they are selling everything in order to buy things that are specifically useful to them and to their build, their total wealth will be much lower but they will probably be more powerful characters.
So WBL alone is not so much an indication of how powerful they are.
One way to do this is to count found items as worth half of what an equivalent bought item is worth, i.e. their sell price rather than their buy price.
Remember that crafting feats also skew WBL and you have to count crafted items by their crafting cost.
Peet
|
A 7th level PC should have about 23,500gp. A good suggestion is to not allow any one item to be worth much more than Half total gear for that level. So 12k would be my limit on what I would allow a 7th level PC to have. I know I have read it before in a rule book but cannot give you the source. I think it was in a 3.5 DMG to be honest. Don,t know if Paizo carried it over themselves. Just hope you are not one of those crazy obsessed Paizo fanboys that think everything they do is perfect and totally demonizes everything 3.5 did.
Here is the reality, if you are using WBL then PCs are needing to buy everything at full price. If you are letting them build everything then they can build--and then sell--it at half price. It is actually possible to make money making mundane armors if you will believe that, but it is far from worth it for the amount of time it requires.
If you are allowing Crafting Feats then they could actually have an item up to 2x their WBL considering they make it themselves. For good measure if they take Rich Parents or Chosen Child add these to their WBL and subtract their average starting wealth from Rich Parents for complete accuracy.
If someone has a super-powered item it isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to be, HOWEVER DO NOT ALLOW PCS TO POOL RESOURCES. Everyone must chip in uniformly for group things--such as a cart--or they don't get it.
Okay, thanks for the guidelines and suggestions. I think right now I'm going to keep the ring on the unavailable list, but it well might come into play sooner than it would if I stuck hard and fast to WBL.
Try to not drop items the PCs actually want in dungeons. For some reason most of my NPCs use brass, stone, or mundane steel weapons that are not masterwork. ^_~*
The general rule is based in how much you trust your PCs. Do you trust them to be able to handle not playing at wealth by level? If so, then fantastic: use the treasure loot system.
Let me see:
WBL for level 7: 23,500 gp.
Ring of Wizardry = 20,000 gp.
My personal advice: Go for it. Allow him to buy this item, and here is my justification.
He is spending all of his defensive money on that ring. It doubles the number of casts he gets from his CLASS and that alone.
Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled.
If he is a Wizard he will be able to cast 8 level 1 spells with this, if he is a sorcerer it goes up to 12 level 1 spells.
It is not game breaking, and at level 7 he can take Forge Ring, thereby being able to just make the ring at 10,000 gp with an appropriate check and time.
More justification: he is banking entirely on his Ring of (wizardly) Power to make him powerful. However this is likely to backfire: he is going to have low AC, no or weak rods, few wands--and believe me: a CL 9 wand of magic missiles (costs 6,750 gp) is far more useful than a Ring of Wizardry in terms of offensive capabilities.
The reality is that by buying that Ring of Wizardry he is actually gimping himself, not being too powerful. Spend all your money in one area and you will be deficient in another, and often times what kills Wizards and Sorcerers isn't their lack of spell casting, but their inability to avoid taking damage. A wand of CL9 Mirror Image is a FAR better buy, and one that he wont use up for a long time.
Remember, Ring of Wizardry ONLY increases spells from the CLASS. It does not double the spells from ability score increases or school specialization.
Addendum:
Personally, if I was playing your wizard I'd be the group crafter
Arcane Crafter School (Universal)
Valet Familiar,
(3rd lvl feat: Craft Wondrous Item), (Arcane Crafter 3rd level: Brew Potion)
(5th lvl feat: Craft Arms and Armor), (Wizard 5th, Craft Wand)
(7th lvl feat: Forge Ring)
Talent: Spark of Creation (-5% crafting cost.)
Let him.
Then laugh because he's gimped from not buying protection devices, rods, pearls of power or any of the 101 things which are so much better.
Throw WBL out the window. It promotes this kind of attitude.
It only becomes an issue if the group is struggling because of the lack of items. ie not enough protection devices, wands of 1st level spells like CLW, when DR becomes an issue, etc.
Inventive players are better with magic items, bad ones use them as a crutch.
Couple things...
1. Rings of wizardry are historically over priced. I'd place the actual value of a ring of wizardry I at closer to 8-10k.
2. Wealth by level is overrated as long as players aren't converting items into big six items freely.
3. As long as he's happy, you are happy, and the other players are happy I see no issue with letting him seek out such a ring (especially as part of a quest - perhaps raiding the tomb of a dead wizard?).
Also, some of you people really need to moderate your tone and commentary. The player is "pathetic" because he wants a specific item? He should be laughed at and set up for failure with said item?
What the hell is wrong with you? This is a non-competitive game in which the only goal is to have fun.
The big problem with WBL is it doesn't take into account how easy/tough the actual adventure path is.
If your players are getting ripped apart by encounters of appropriate CR, then maybe they deserve a bone.
If your players are demolishing multiple CR appropriate encounters, throwing them a clockwork golem isn't such a great idea.
What the hell is wrong with you? This is a non-competitive game in which the only goal is to have fun.The almighty meta-game of
I am better than you
makes the game competitive for those who wish it to be competitive.
I agree with you, however, the Players and DM are here to enjoy themselves in Jolly Co-operation!Be a SUNBRO not a DICKWRAITH.
^_~*
|
Instead of saying "by level X you should have Y money", say "if at level X you have less than Y money, you're relatively weak for your level".
And then you can use CR = X-1 encounters that are just as challenging as the CR = X encounter would be for the normally equipped PC.
You don't have to use WBL as a law that says how much you should have. You can use it as a diagnostic tool to determine if someone is less, normal or better-equipped for his level compared to the average that Paizo assumes when designing monsters/assigning CRs.
Throw WBL out of the window, or treat it as a punishment.
Instead aim for using the treasure system.
The Treasure system will ALWAYS give you more money than the WBL system, but this also assumes that the PCs will use some of that money on resources that they have to buy. Think raise dead, restoration, and the ilk.
This is the table I use:
KEY:
XX)_([WBL]/[Tre])_=_(WBL/Treasure)______Gained throughout Level XX:(party xp/party gold)____CR(XX)XP/CR(XX)Treasure
01)_____________________________________Gained throughout Level 01:(8,000_______/5,200)_____400___/260
02)_([1.0]/[1.3])_=_(1,000/1,300)_______Gained throughout Level 02:(12,000______/11,000)____600___/550
03)_([1.0]/[1.4])_=_(3,000/4,050)_______Gained throughout Level 03:(16,000______/16,000)____800___/800
04)_([1.0]/[1.3])_=_(6,000/8,050)_______Gained throughout Level 04:(24,000______/23,000)____1200__/1150
05)_([1.0]/[1.3])_=_(10,500/13,800)_____Gained throughout Level 05:(32,000______/31,000)____1600__/1550
06)_([1.0]/[1.4])_=_(16,000/22,800)_____Gained throughout Level 06:(44,000______/36,000)____2400__/2000
07)_([1.0]/[1.5])_=_(23,500/35,800)_____Gained throughout Level 07:(64,000______/52,000)____3200__/2600
08)_([1.0]/[1.6])_=_(33,000/52,550)_____Gained throughout Level 08:(96,000______/67,000)____4800__/3350
09)_([1.0]/[1.6])_=_(46,000/72,471)_____Gained throughout Level 09:(120,000_____/79,687)____6400__/4250
10)_([1.0]/[1.6])_=_(62,000/100,857)____Gained throughout Level 10:(200,000_____/113,541)___9600__/5450
11)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(82,000/136,403)____Gained throughout Level 11:(260,000_____/142,187)___12800_/7000
12)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(108,000/180,935)___Gained throughout Level 12:(380,000_____/178,125)___19200_/9000
13)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(140,000/239,841)___Gained throughout Level 13:(520,000_____/235,625)___25600_/11600
14)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(185,000/314,060)___Gained throughout Level 14:(760,000_____/296,875)___38400_/15000
15)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(240,000/411,179)___Gained throughout Level 15:(1,020,000___/388,476)___51200_/19500
16)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(315,000/545,456)___Gained throughout Level 16:(1,640,000___/537,109)___76800_/25000
17)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(410,000/701,706)___Gained throughout Level 17:(2,000,000___/625,000)___102400/32000
18)_([1.0]/[1.6])_=_(530,000/857,956)___Gained throughout Level 18:(3,000,000___/800,781)___153600/41000
19)_([1.0]/[1.5])_=_(685,000/1,058,151)_Gained throughout Level 19:(4,200,000___/1,086,914)_204800/53000
20)_([1.0]/[1.5])_=_(880,000/1,329,880)_Gained throughout Level 20:
If I am running a game with WBL then Item Creation Feats are banned. If I am using Treasure instead then Item Creation Feats are required, and nothing can be sold at full value with coins as loot being rare.
One system encourages PCs to power game, and the other encourages them to craft ALL of their own gear if possible. PCs will likely not have huge power-boosts like with WBL, because things are made over time.
The other main advantage of the WBL system is that since items are crafted at 1/2 or 1/4 value this means PCs can exchange their gear without becoming trapped in their item choices.
Throw WBL out of the window, or treat it as a punishment.
Instead aim for using the treasure system.
The Treasure system will ALWAYS give you more money than the WBL system, but this also assumes that the PCs will use some of that money on resources that they have to buy. Think raise dead, restoration, and the ilk.This is the table I use:
KEY:
XX)_([WBL]/[Tre])_=_(WBL/Treasure)______Gained throughout Level XX:(party xp/party gold)____CR(XX)XP/CR(XX)Treasure
01)_____________________________________Gained throughout Level 01:(8,000_______/5,200)_____400___/260
02)_([1.0]/[1.3])_=_(1,000/1,300)_______Gained throughout Level 02:(12,000______/11,000)____600___/550
03)_([1.0]/[1.4])_=_(3,000/4,050)_______Gained throughout Level 03:(16,000______/16,000)____800___/800
04)_([1.0]/[1.3])_=_(6,000/8,050)_______Gained throughout Level 04:(24,000______/23,000)____1200__/1150
05)_([1.0]/[1.3])_=_(10,500/13,800)_____Gained throughout Level 05:(32,000______/31,000)____1600__/1550
06)_([1.0]/[1.4])_=_(16,000/22,800)_____Gained throughout Level 06:(44,000______/36,000)____2400__/2000
07)_([1.0]/[1.5])_=_(23,500/35,800)_____Gained throughout Level 07:(64,000______/52,000)____3200__/2600
08)_([1.0]/[1.6])_=_(33,000/52,550)_____Gained throughout Level 08:(96,000______/67,000)____4800__/3350
09)_([1.0]/[1.6])_=_(46,000/72,471)_____Gained throughout Level 09:(120,000_____/79,687)____6400__/4250
10)_([1.0]/[1.6])_=_(62,000/100,857)____Gained throughout Level 10:(200,000_____/113,541)___9600__/5450
11)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(82,000/136,403)____Gained throughout Level 11:(260,000_____/142,187)___12800_/7000
12)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(108,000/180,935)___Gained throughout Level 12:(380,000_____/178,125)___19200_/9000
13)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(140,000/239,841)___Gained throughout Level 13:(520,000_____/235,625)___25600_/11600
14)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(185,000/314,060)___Gained throughout Level 14:(760,000_____/296,875)___38400_/15000
15)_([1.0]/[1.7])_=_(240,000/411,179)___Gained throughout Level 15:(1,020,000___/388,476)___51200_/19500...
You're advocating a system where item creation feats are required or PCs don't get any treasure? Blech. Definitely not to my taste.
Quoting the rules:
Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
You should not allow these kind of buying.
Quoting the rules:
Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.You should not allow these kind of buying.
Those guidelines are for creating characters above 1st-level, not for whether existing characters can dump all their money on one item. Otherwise, it's rather weird to say "Yup, this metropolis has a +5 mace for sale, and you have the gold, but you can't buy it because you just don't seem awesome enough."
Note regarding WBL: It is not the full story. The Treasure Values per Encounter table hands out between 30-40% (it varies) more treasure per level.
However, the excess is considered to be spent on losses due to selling equipment and consumables.
Those guidelines are for creating characters above 1st-level, not for whether existing characters can dump all their money on one item. Otherwise, it's rather weird to say "Yup, this metropolis has a +5 mace for sale, and you have the gold, but you can't buy it because you just don't seem awesome enough."Quoting the rules:
Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.You should not allow these kind of buying.
I'm sorry I didn't read the thread carefully
You're advocating a system where item creation feats are required or PCs don't get any treasure? Blech. Definitely not to my taste.
The PCs get 1/2 treasure, and they would be the ones deciding if they want to do this system.
They end up with more total money if they take item creation feats, or only 80 - 75% of their total WBL. I can assure you that at least 1 person is going to decide to be the super crafter.It is the treasure system to reward them for using crafting feats, the treasure system and force them to spend a lot of money (If you are not giving them things that must be sold at 1/2 value), or just use WBL and either ban or allow item creation feats.
WBL is really just there for ease of play and bringing in new people, and should not be worshiped as some sort of all standard.
Why is that?
Sticking with the same character is rewarded by the treasure system because you will be gaining FAR more money than you would from WBL.
New characters should be at WBL, so level 7 would start with: 23,500 gp
However, a character who has been played from level 1 to 7 should have 35,800 gp if nothing is sold at half value.
If you use Item Creation Feats AND treasure has to be sold at 1/2 value then WBL should start at half value as well to balance the two.
Point is: the correlation should be that treasure system always gives more than WBL--always, and thereby making a new character disadvantages the PC in a monetary sense and therefore encourages people to stick with the characters they made.
It is worth pointing out that the restriction on no more than half a character's wealth on one item specifically applies to generating a new character at higher than 1st level.
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item.
Once the game is underway there is no reason to restrict a character's buying ability unless you specifically don't like the item. After all, it's his money.
It's not the best choice though, even for the effect he is looking for. A prepared caster can buy pearls and a spontaneous caster can buy runestones. These are usually a better buy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Taku Ooka Nin, there is already a balance for item creation. +25% WBL.
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to handcraft most or all of your magic items. Because you’ve spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table (Core Rulebook 399) suggests for you. This is especially the case if you’re a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items— in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Taku Ooka Nin, there is already a balance for item creation. +25% WBL.
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to handcraft most or all of your magic items. Because you’ve spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table (Core Rulebook 399) suggests for you. This is especially the case if you’re a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items— in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
Its there, but I just unbind it: if they took the feat I allow the system to work to the fullest effect.
In my mind, WBL has to do with the character's adventuring gear. Non-adventuring stuff doesn't really count. Making the character buy a house or a business is a way for me to force one of my characters to drop some wealth out of their WBL.
In my mind, WBL has to do with the character's adventuring gear. Non-adventuring stuff doesn't really count. Making the character buy a house or a business is a way for me to force one of my characters to drop some wealth out of their WBL.
At the same time keep in mind that the system is rigged so the PCs will win, and them having more wealth does not hinder that.
Basically if you're doing non-connected dungeon crawls where PCs are not doing anything in the world or keeping track of standard of living then just auto-adjusts to WBL each level. They just auto-rebuild each level. Treasure is meaningless because of the auto-rebuild.The treasure system gives more money than WBL.
If you want to make crafting feats mandatory to make the PCs more "alive" and in their world, then enable all of them. The extra wealth does increase the relative power of the other PCs, but the effective "loss" of the feats that could have been used to make the PC powerful balanced the party.
Crafting feats are like the Leadership type feats: everyone has a different idea as to how to run them or to include them in their games.
The treasure system is effectively giving people the gear they would have from using crafting feats per the 50% hard max the WBL system recommends. This is why if you're going to use the treasure system AND crafting feats that you should 1/2 WBL and make everything be sold at half value since the PCs, if they make everything, will still have access to all the extra money of the Treasure system, while you being able to not worry about much else.
The additional side effect of crafting feats is that things are made at 1/2 value, thereby meaning that since said items can be sold at the cost they were made the PCs can change their gear around should they want to rebuild to something.
It works out in the PCs favor either way, and makes the Wizard super-viable since he can get all of the crafting feats relatively quickly.
Another bit is that if crafting feats and leadership are allowed then allow them to use craft golem.
It is more or less the difference between doing the money system the "easy way" (WBL+Rebuilds) or the "hard way" (Treasure system and crafting).
If you do treasure system AND crafting feats with everything being sold at full value or just generic full value treasures then your PCs will, depending on level, have more than 3x the effective gold they should.
Of course this reminds me of the Witch who took Rich Parents, Chosen Child, and a drawback and Spark of Creation, then proceeded to make nothing but Potions of Cure Light wounds, 75 potions of cure light wounds with his 1800 gp, and sell them all to the other PCs at 25 gp each.
That was a fun campaign.
Lol god nvm i was looking at the cantrip column. Aaaaanndd that means time for bed cause i gotta be up at 3:30 am again :P
It's all good, somewhere in there I mention a Sorcerer/Magus getting bonus spells from both Int and Dex, I meant Cha but it was late :)