DM advice: Thematically, how does charisma work for undead?

[davypi]

I am getting ready to DM a campaign and need some help with a monster template I am goingto build.

The main plot is going to revolve around a disease which eventually turns the target person into an undead creature. As the disease progresses, certain stats will increase or decrease. These changes should typically be giving the host body more hit points but make them less likeable as they will gain some mass altering their appearance and difficulty interacting with others. In other words, I want to increase their constitution, but lower their charisma. This is obviously a problem because undead eschew their Con score for their Cha. But I'm trying to understand how this makes sense. I realize that Cha doesn't necessarily make you more "likeable", but it still doesn't explain how your "presence" allows you to take more damage. I also wouldn't make sense for a hearty person who gets the disease to suddenly become weaker simply because they have a lower cha. I suspect that, as a workaround, I will have to increase hit dice instead of Con, but it would still help if I understood the underlying mechanics so I can make sure the templates I am building have the desired function. So, is there a good explanation for change in mechanics? Suggestions are also welcome.

[Sindalla]

Charisma isn't always a measure of how you look. Sometimes it's a matter of your personality, or the impression you leave on people.

Of course, being horribly disfigured can affect the impression you leave on people, but a strong enough personality can overcome that.

An easy way to represent this would be to leave the CHA score alone, but give them a penalty on CHA related skills.

[Fomsie]

Pure force of will and presence. Confidence(arrogance?). Assuredness. Conviction. Perhaps even fearlessness... or simply an overwhelming drive that over rides all else.

An undead, especially intelligent undead, is essentially a dead object animated and given life by magic and held together by force of will. That drive to exist should bleed over into all that they are, they defy death after all.

For zombie like creatures like you are describing, just don't make them undead until the disease has run it's course. Make it like an infection, it might even raise their con and lower their charisma while it is infecting them... and finally, when they succumb, they take on the undead rules.

As for the fear of them getting weaker, well, not every type of undead affliction makes you stronger... in fact the common ones do leave the being weaker in most cases, as they lose class levels and the like. So yes, it makes perfect sense for a hearty person who gets sick to get weaker.

And if you really want them to be undead, but don't want to deal with high Charisma, look into the assorted rules for variant zombies and you can probably tailor something to your vision quite well.

Good luck and happy zombie apocalypse!

[Luthorne]

The reason Charisma makes undead tougher is because they are no longer present because of their vitality - given that they no longer possess it - but because they simply refuse to die, using their force of will to cling to a blighted mockery of life at all costs. Those with low charisma lack the tenacity and stubborn resolve to remain in the world of the living that those with high charisma possess, and without that determination, can be sent back to their ultimate destinies much more easily.

[Imbicatus]

Also, not all "Zombies" need to be undead. Yellow Musk Creepers are a favorite of mine.

[MechE_]

Mechanically, here is what I would probably do...

Each failed saving throw (or whatever else you use to measure the disease's progress) results in a cumulative increase in the creature's maximum hitpoints by 5 and a cumulative penalty on all charisma based skills of -2. When the creature has failed 5 (or whatever number you want to be the end of disease) saving throws, the disease has fully set in and that night, the creature sleeps for the final time. At dawn, the creature ceases to be living creature and instead becomes undead. The cumulative bonus to HP and the cumulative penalty to charisma based skill checks both disappear. The creature's Charisma score becomes the higher of it's Constitution or Charisma score. The creature gains a further +2 bonus to it's Charisma score and it's Constitution score is eliminated.

[EvilPaladin]

I'd give bonuses to Charisma and penalties to Constitution, but give bonus HP to override the CON penalty, and penalize Charisma-based skill checks, and eventually base them off of constitution. When CON reaches 0, I'd make the PC/NPC undead and completely change them to undead.

The flavor would be that as the sickness progresses, the person becomes more and more aware of what it means to be alive through the striking contrast that they provide as they are dying, and thus become more certain of their identity, personality, and ability to manipulate words. Unfortunately, this improved sense of self would be nullified by the horrific physical transformations that would ultimately destroy them, so people become increasingly afraid and disgusted by them to a point where their physical self has become so weak that nobody can stand to be around him. Then, when the disease finally takes over, the victim's body is not alive but the mind refuses to accept that since they have an enhanced sense of life, and so through the pure force of will they have remained animate, if not necessarily sentient.

[Tacticslion]

As for working out the mechanics, just keep applying CON bonus and CHA damage until they die, at which point, their former CON score becomes their new CHA score, and they lose their CON score.

Voila! :D Hope that helps!

[Terronus]

You might consider ability drain to CHA that can't be recovered by magic (if that is what the infection is meant to be). I think the other posters have presented good ideas of how it works thematically for undead!

[davypi]

Lots of great ideas and explanations. Thanks to all.

The disease definitely has stages, but many other things happen that I didn't go into because the CON/CHA issue was the real hurdle. The idea of the creatures gaining mass really gives them bulk, not HP, so I think a STR boost is more appropriate. Having the disease damage their CON makes more sense as CON=0 can be the death/undead trigger. (Now we have some logic to this!!) I like the idea of penalties to CHA skills instead of damage. The disease has different effects on different people, allowing some of them to control others. Thus I can drop the penalties for the "chosen" undead, allowing them to command the "common" undead without actually hurting their needed CHA score.

[Nearyn]

I realize there was more to your question davypi, but I felt like I needed to post this, if only to answer the question in the title of this thread :)

How does charisma work for undead?

Ask these guys. Beware, Spoilers =)

-Nearyn