If a human was in the middle of a large open area with Dim Light cast everywhere, how far would he be able to see?
In normal or bright light, in large open area, I can conceive that he would be able to see for miles. In darkness, the answer is simple: he can't. Is there a rule about how far a human can see in dim light? I'll settle for advice.
According to Dim Light under Vision and Light in the Core there doesn't seem to be a limit, I think that's mostly due to dim light being based around mostly light sources.
If the light is dim, he would still be able to see his normal distance, just not as well. Hence the 20% miss chance for concealment other creatures get in combat. In turn giving them the ability to use stealth against the human. It doesn't clearly spell out how well you can see in dim light(or bright light for that matter), but a simple ruling that I would most likely use is that whatever distance you determine is reasonable to be able to clearly see, read, etc. in bright light, half that distance you would be able to do that in dim light. There are no clear rules on that, so it's totally up to GM interpretation.
Edit: Curious how this would even come up since most parties will have access to dancing lights, light, continual flame at a pretty low level. If they don't have that, a +1 weapon can shed light as if it had a light spell on it as well. Either way, hope my post helps.
The human can imperfectly see everywhere the dim light exists. The elf can see in some of the darkness outside of the dim light.
|
Here is the excerpt from the CRB;
"In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch."
It's feasible you could see for a long way - perhaps as far as you could see during the day, but without the acuity.
I'd just rule that you see normal distance, but creatures can use stealth, have a 20% miss chance on account of concealment etc. etc. as per above.
I'd ignore the part about "an area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch" for your example as that line is referring to an area of darkness being illuminated by a torch (I believe).
In real life, you can resolve the image of a certain size object about a tenth as far away in dim light as you can in bright light.
So, if you can see well enough to recognise an individual 300 feet away in bright light (seems about the limit, using common sense), then you'd need to be 30 feet away to recognise them in dim light.
Presumably, then, an elf could reliably recognise someone in dim light from 60 feet away.
Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight
Paizo obviously don't get out at night much; there's a whole world of difference between moonlight and bright starlight.
Edit: Curious how this would even come up since most parties will have access to dancing lights, light, continual flame at a pretty low level. If they don't have that, a +1 weapon can shed light as if it had a light spell on it as well. Either way, hope my post helps.
First off, thanks everyone for these quick replies.
The reason I started thinking about this is that I was preparing for an upcoming encounter. One tactic, I was thinking was to cast Deeper Darkness at the start of the encounter which has 60 feet radius and drops bright light to dim light. The foes all have darkvision so they'll have an advantage over the mostly human PCs.
Then, I started to wonder, if a PC is at the edge of the area of effect, can he see a foe on the other side (120feet away). Then I thought about a lone human in moonlight could he see 120feet away? Given the answers above, I think so but not very well so I'll stick to the 20% miss chance everywhere.
And yes, I am sure, someone will take out a light source but that will cost them actions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vision type alone does not matter. Light Levels alone do not matter. Only the interaction between the two matters.
What I mean is that you have to identify both to understand who can see what when.
In most cases, it is dependent upon the light source. Think of Low Light Vision as "TIMES 2" vision and Darkvision as "0 PLUS X" vision.
Low Light or "TIMES 2" vision.
A character can see "TWICE AS FAR" from a light source. That DOES NOT mean a character can see in dim light. It means that normal light is now twice as far AND dim light is now twice as far. The SPECIAL part of this vision is that they can see at night, if the moon or stars are showing.
Darkvision or "0 PLUS X" vision.
A character with dark vision can see "0 PLUS X" distance away from them, even in darkness (not the magical stuff). For Half-Orcs and Dwarves, it is "0 PLUS 60'".
A single square in the game could be Darkness, Dim Light or Normal Light depending on who is looking at it. And just because an Elf can see it, doesn't mean a Dwarf can. Position matters.
If an elf and a dwarf are standing next to each other and the elf is holding a torch, the elf can see a square 75' away as dim light. It is darkness to the dwarf.
Creative Director
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlightPaizo obviously don't get out at night much; there's a whole world of difference between moonlight and bright starlight.
Or daytime! We're chained to our desks churning out all these extra books and cards for you to enjoy! :-)
A more serious response to that concern would be that we intentionally oversimplify certain rules to keep things less complex; the line between exact reality simulation and ease of play needs to be drawn somewhere.
To answer the original question... yes, a human can see anything in dim light conditions. The range is set not by human eyesight, but by the effect that creates the dim light. Things with low light vision see twice as far as that dim light range.
Also remember Maplewood that darkvision can't see through deeper darkness. (if that is a concern)
One limit on vision distances comes from the book Underdark. It was a 3.5 book.
It states that you can see a light source and the things it lights up 10 times the distance of that source.
So a human could see a torch 200' away while an elf could see that torch from 400' away.
Dim light distances would be 5 times as far.
Another limit is the Perception skill which gives all characters a -1/10' of distance. So even in bright day light, seeing a person at the other end of a football field (300') would be a -30 to the check.
Using either, or both limits should be enough of a guideline to play.
Here is the excerpt from the CRB;
"In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch."
I see more clearly now (pun intended).
I re-read the vision and light section. The answer is there in how dim light is defined. It says "a character can see somewhat". There is no range limit within this definition, you just don't see as well.
Limits are implicitly defined depending on the light sources or spells or I could impose limits through a perception check as suggested by Komoda. For perception, there are distance modifiers, unfavourable conditions and terrible conditions that can be used.
One limit on vision distances comes from the book Underdark. It was a 3.5 book.
It states that you can see a light source and the things it lights up 10 times the distance of that source.
So a human could see a torch 200' away while an elf could see that torch from 400' away.
Dim light distances would be 5 times as far.
Another limit is the Perception skill which gives all characters a -1/10' of distance. So even in bright day light, seeing a person at the other end of a football field (300') would be a -30 to the check.
Using either, or both limits should be enough of a guideline to play.
Oh, someone else noticed the thing with perception and distance. I want to bring up the bit about the +2 or -2 to the DC to percieve something due to whether the conditions are 'favorable' or not.
Favorable and unfavorable conditions depend upon the sense being used to make the check. For example, bright light might decrease the DC of checks involving sight, while torchlight or moonlight might increase the DC. Background noise might increase a DC involving hearing, while competing odors might increase the DC of a check involving scent.
And the DC to notice a visible creature is 0 (From the same table in the perception rules). So, all we have to do is look for the point where the DC would be impossible to actually make.
Firstly, since this is all based on your perception score, it obviously goes farther if the score is higher (fair enough, since those people have trained their senses better). So lets take out things like feats and ability scores. And lets assume no ranks in perception, so it is just a straight d20 roll. You can later account for things like ranks by adding +10/level +30 if it is a class skill.
With the +1/10 feet away rule, combined with a +2 due to 'unfavorable conditions', then I'd say you can see out to 180 feet before you would be unable to see anything.
Although, I suppose there should be a couple of extra details added to that. I think it would be rather fair to also consider the penalties to stealth due to size. Even if they are not actively trying to hide, it is simply a fact that it would be easier to spot a 32 foot giant than a 1 foot fairy at 100 feet away. So, let us use that penalty to stealth to decrease the perception DC.
That has the advantage that it mechanically accounts for the fact that you can see a mountain from miles away on a moonlit night, so the verisimilitude is nice. It also shows how you can easily not find your car keys (a tiny or diminutive object) right on the table, while you need a rather SEVERE wisdom penalty to not notice a tiger chilling on the table (maybe the wisdom penalty is due to bloodloss from tiger attack?)
One limit on vision distances comes from the book Underdark. It was a 3.5 book.
It states that you can see a light source and the things it lights up 10 times the distance of that source.
So a human could see a torch 200' away while an elf could see that torch from 400' away.
Dim light distances would be 5 times as far.
Another limit is the Perception skill which gives all characters a -1/10' of distance. So even in bright day light, seeing a person at the other end of a football field (300') would be a -30 to the check.
Using either, or both limits should be enough of a guideline to play.
Im pretty sure you could see a candle light in the dark miles away if nothing obstructed it.
Mojo, that might be the case in a somehow completely black area, like say underground. But in most cases there is some sort of light all around. One reason why it is difficult to see stars at night, especially on the East Coast of America, is because of all of the artificial light that interferes with your vision.
There becomes a point that you simply can not gain any benefit from the light. Sometimes you can see the light, but it is so far away you can't see anything near it. Look up in the sky. See the moon? If so, do you see the American flag flying on it? Of course not. It is too far away. You have line of sight. But it is bright enough to give the whole game world the ability to see something. How about the stars and satellites in the sky? Can you perceive them? Satellites are what, light years closer than the stars but you can't tell which is which without some serious help of a telescope.
The game isn't designed to worry about combat stats of light for distances over 200' or so (IMHO). That would be a 40" map, with line of sight. I don't know anyone that plays pathfinder on a table bigger than 96", or 480'.
Combat doesn't care if you can see the mountain. Combat cares if you can see the elf or dwarf or whatever, standing on the mountain. I have never heard of anyone using perception to see a mountain or a forest. I have never heard of anyone using perception to see anything on the campaign scale, only the combat scale. Your GM usually decides what features can be seen at the combat scale.
I never bothered to use RAW on light conditions... I simplify it by having just 3 possible lighting conditions: completely clear, dim light and total darkness.
Basically, I just rule that humans can see perfectly up to 30ft on dim-light, anything between 30 and 60ft has partial concealment and anything beyond 60ft has full concealment (Elves can twice as far, of course).
It's not realistic, but it's simple enough. It may need some adjusting to specific situations, but as a rule of thumb, it works just fine.
The last line in my last post should have been campaign scale.
Rikkan, that only counts if it is magical darkness that no light can pass through, not just an area that lacks light.
