I may answer my own question, but as far as RAI and RAW go; when using Use Magic Device (UMD) to emulate class features; does spellcasting fall under this use of the skill?
Let's say for example I am a non-divine non-spontaneous caster and want to use Incense of Meditation. Can I even use UMD to use the item before I prepare my spells?
I would say no.
You aren't really emulating a class feature to use the item; the incense doesn't require a class feature to use it. Anyone can light it but only divine spell casters can benefit from it.
I'm trying to emulate divine spellcasting to gain the benefits of having all spells (that are applicable) maximized without increasing their spell level.
While I agree anyone can light the incense; My hope was to emulate prepared divine spellcasting before lighting it to gain the other benefit.
So the order would be:
UMD - Emulate Cleric spellcasting
Item - Light Incense
Wizard - prepare spells for the day
Would that work to gain the maximizing benefit of the incense?
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I don't believe so because you are not emulating for the purpose of activating an item.
I agree with MurphysParadox, that would not work.
I was curious because this would be about the same as an arcane caster using Karma Beads. Maybe, unless they are activating it blindly with UMD instead of emulating a class feature.
@MurphysParadox
I was/am emulating a class feature for the purpose of activating an item.
The item is clearly stating that it needs a class feature: divine spellcasting, for the benefit of maximizing all prepared spells. Can I activate it blindly to gain the benefit, ignoring the divine spellcasting prerequisite, to gain the maximize effect to my spells?
I could be missing the point of the item's text as well, when it says "when a divine spellcaster...", just because I am emulating a class feature does not make me a divine spellcaster.
If I cannot use Use Magic Device, do I have to have 1 level in cleric or druid in order to gain the benefits of the item with all my spells?
The real question is whether a Mystic Theurge could use Incense of Meditation to maximize both arcane and divine spells or divine spells only. The correct answer appears to be divine spells only.
But if it did allow a Mystic Theurge to maximize all spells prepared whether arcane or divine, then UMD would enable a pure arcane caster to maximize his arcane spells.
If I cannot use Use Magic Device, do I have to have 1 level in cleric or druid in order to gain the benefits of the item with all my spells?
I don't think that will work either. From my reading of the item, it seems pretty clear that the purpose is for a divine caster's divine spells that they get from their divine-spell-granting class(es) to be treated as maximized.
Yeah...UMD only allows you to activate items as if you had a class feature. It doesn't actually give you a class feature, so if you do not have the correct feature for it to act upon it does nothing.
In this particular case you don't have any divine spell slots so it does nothing for you.
To address your other question taking a level in a class that has divine spells does not help you either. The incense only affects divine spell slots. So, sure you can take 1 level of cleric and all your cleric spells will count as maximized when used with the incense. But none of your wizard spells are maximized, and never can be with the incense.
If I cannot use Use Magic Device, do I have to have 1 level in cleric or druid in order to gain the benefits of the item with all my spells?I don't think that will work either. From my reading of the item, it seems pretty clear that the purpose is for a divine caster's divine spells that they get from their divine-spell-granting class(es) to be treated as maximized.
Looks legit to me. It does say "all his spells".
Technically, a wizard 19/cleric 1 could maximize a *lot* of nice spells with this stuff. It'd be pretty expensive to use on a regular basis, though.
Technically, a wizard 19/cleric 1 could maximize a *lot* of nice spells with this stuff. It'd be pretty expensive to use on a regular basis, though.
Technically = it works because they did not specifically say it does not work. I usually read rules restrictively, i.e., you can only do what it says you can do within the context that it is presented. Not permissively, i.e., you can do anything they don't specifically prohibit.
I can't imagine the purpose of this item was to maximize all spells of a character if they have even 1 level of a divine-spell-granting-class.
Best advice for the OP is to check with their GM to see what his/her interpretation is.
Technically = it works because they did not specifically say it does not work. I usually read rules restrictively, i.e., you can only do what it says you can do within the context that it is presented. Not permissively, i.e., you can do anything they don't specifically prohibit.
In this case, they did say it would work with "all his spells". That puts the onus on the remainder of the text to qualify that statement--which it does not, much as a sorcerer's bloodline arcana does not. And in the latter case, the arcana applies even to non-sorcerer spells.
The Bloodline Arcana powers apply to all of the spells cast by characters of that bloodline, not just those cast using the sorcerer's spell slots.
General rule: If a class ability modifies your spellcasting, it applies to your spells from all classes, not just spells from the class that grants the ability. (The exception is if the class ability specifically says it only applies to spells from that class.)
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When a divine spellcaster lights a block of incense of meditation and then spends 8 hours praying and meditating nearby, the incense enables him to prepare all his spells as though affected by the Maximize Spell feat. However, all the spells prepared in this way are at their normal level, not at three levels higher (as with the regular metamagic feat).
The subject is the divine spellcaster and the incense allow him to prepare all his spells as maximized.
The restrictive interpretation is that it work only on the divine spell of the divine spellcaster.
you can read it extensively and make it work on all the prepared spells of a character with some level in a divine spellcasting class.
In both instances UMD don't do anything for you. Anyone can lit the incense, but the target is a divine spellcaster. UMD don't allow you to fake being a valid target.
Thank you everyone, very much.
I would assume that the intended function was to boost divine spells only, but the text is actually clear in that it allows ALL spells to be maximized... At least by my reading. I would personally houserule it and say it only worked on divine spells, but as far as I can tell there is no denying that blaphers reading is correct.
If we're dropping our RAI lenses when we read this, does it work for female spellcasters, since it says "his" spells? What about for the spells that the spellcaster did not achieve through level up? If the spellcaster received a spell via a friend's scroll, is it truly "his" spell?
If we read the text in the context in which it is presented, it is pretty clear what is meant.
So I don't get why you are throwing clearly sarcastic remarks my way.
You're reading sarcasm when there is none there. I understand that some people place an inordinate amount of importance on RAW and they take that to mean that verbatim what the text says is what it means. The designers of the game had certain assumptions when they wrote the rules. As players and readers of the rules, we must have certain assumptions.
If we read this in context, divine spell caster, incense, praying and meditating, etc., it is clear that the benefit is intended to only apply to divine spells. I don't see the value in saying "Even though we know it means this, because of semantics we must place a higher value on this other interpretation."
My point with my examples is that we're are already not reading it strictly literally - we're apply assumptions. And we're supposed to.
Secondly bloodline arcana has similar wording and there we have a FAQ that tells us that bloodline arcana is meant to apply to ALL spells, including divine if the sorcerer has those from other classes.
My RAI argument would be that these are two completely different situations. A sorcerer's bloodline is apart of them. The PRD description is:
"Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil."
If we look at the Aberant bloodline:
"Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell of the polymorph subschool, increase the duration of the spell by 50% (minimum 1 round). This bonus does not stack with the increase granted by the Extend Spell feat."
Because of the aberant power in the sorcerer's blood, all of the polymorph spells the sorcerer casts are enhanced. If the sorcerer takes a level in cleric and has access to a polymorph spell, does the aberant power in their bloodline somehow diminish? I would argue that it does not. Once again, it is apart of the sorcerer.
When we look at the second situation, we're looking at an item that is very specifically connected to religion, prayer, divine spells. This tells me that the bonus only applies to divine spells.
From a game balance angle, I can't imagine that 1 level of divine spellcasting is much of a balancer. So I assume that instead of the designers wanting to ensure the caster had 1 level of a divine class before maximizing all of their arcane spells, that the designer's intent was that it only applies to divine spells.
Do you see why RAW is actually important? If we could semantically prove that the rules specifically stated something, then it would not be open to discussion.
Understanding the intent of the designers is what is important to me. If that is what you consider RAW, then yes, it is important. IME, however, people tend to state something rather silly, and then use the RAW argument as some kind of shield that should protect that silliness from being torn apart.
When we read the rules, we should not be looking for the most powerful option, we should be looking for the option that makes the most sense. Of course there are going to be some disagreements at times, but the disagreements should also make sense. If one side's point relies on only on wording, then it is already a failure IMO.
But as we are unlikely to see any official response to this I guess the real answer is: Depends on your GM! It is open enough to interpretation I think that each GM will have to make up his/her own mind on this. I'd advice people to take the cautious approach and rule that it only applies to divine spells.
I agree with you on both counts - depends on GM and I'd also advise that it only applies to divine spells.
Okay, thank you again everyone.
The gist is:
1: UMD cannot be used by magi, wizards, or witches (or any future arcane caster that prepares spells) to gain the maximize benefits of Incense of Meditation.
2: It is up to the GM of the game to determine if the maximize effect benefits all the character's spells or just the divine spells. Even if there is an errate that states that the item in question behaves like the sorcerer bloodline abilities.
3: RAW and RAI will cause arguments so it is best to settle them before the game begins so the concept will not be snubbed during the game.
Thank you again everyone.
So I shall assume that the intent of the item is just for divine spells until an errata comes out, then ask for the approval of a GM for final say in their game.