Some Oracle questions

[Ector777]

1. Does an Oracle with clouded vision lose his DEX modifier to AC versus arrows if the shooter is farther than 60ft away? Rules aren't specific enough for this. On the one hand, he isn't flat-footed, on the other - he didn't see the attacker so he cannot dodge or block the arrow.
2. If an Oracle with clouded vision casts Oracle's Burden, the victim will his sight reduced to 30ft, right? The spell says that he isn't going to get the benefits of the curse, and 60ft is a benefit.
3. How should an Oracle with deafness (curse) communicate with the others? Is there a body language, and if it is, does it count as extra language in game terms?

[ArmouredMonk13]

1:Yes, because he is unaware of the attacker. I guess you could make the attacker make an opposed stealth check, but due to the massive penalty the oracle would take from distance, and the concealment bonuses for the attacker, it would be kinda pointless. He has no idea where the attack is coming from, so couldn't suddenly duck away from it.

2:Yep, because the increase in range is a benefit, not a drawback.

3:There is a PFS houserule that it only takes 1 rank in linguistics to learn Sign Language. In addition, there is Drow Sign Language, and Flail Snail[another sign language, specific to flail snails]. And if nothing else, investing in Eldritch Heritage[Arcane], taking a Raven who supernaturally speaks common, and having a high enough level familiar to "Speak With Master" might serve as a translator, but that is GM dependent[some will say no because it is "speak", though I prefer to think of it as "communicate", since a deaf master wouldn't speak with his raven so much as signal it].

[Corvino]

I'm not convinced by the entire "you can't see beyond 30ft, that's equivalent to being flatfooted" argument. Human beings have a degree of three-dimensional hearing. If you hear something you can more-or-less pinpoint the direction it came from. Not necessarily well, but you don't need an exact origin to know to duck if someone's shooting at you.

Arrows travel at well below the speed of sound, so there will be a degree of directional warning before it strikes.

I'd limit an Oracle with the Blind curse to a 30ft range when casting, but making them flatfooted to attacks from beyond that seems overkill.

[Hendelbolaf]

My Oracle of Life with clouded vision feels your pain!

Anyone you cannot see has concealment to you so it would be treated just like if they were in darkness or a cloud, etc...

There is still a chance to hear them through a Perception check but it is still concealment.

[Emo Duck]

In my current game, the deaf oracle uses chalk and a small blackboard.

She also scratches it with her claws when she wants to emphasise a point to the hearing.

[Ector777]

Thanks for the responses, guys, but the main question still needs a clarification.
ArmouredMonk13, I wasn't asking about the first arrow at the beginning of combat. It's clear that the oracle is more likely to be ambushed by the archers, if they don't produce any sounds. I was asking about the regular shooting in combat. The oracle already knows that SOMEBODY is shooting at him and his teammates. He already knows the direction of arrows and he had already see the arrows at their last 30/60 ft of flight.
Why should he lose his DEX bonus to AC then? Yes, he didn't see the archer, but he could hear the shot (it's almost impossible to shoot silently), and he was ready to dodge. If we rule that he always loses his DEX bonus, he's going to be easily killed, as he cannot wear heavy armor and is likely to rely on DEX for defense.
Disclaimer: I don't play any oracle yet :) But I'm going to make an oracle of Lore, which can use CHA modifier instead of the DEX one. So the ruling isn't of life importance to me, as I can choose another curse, but I'd like to make it clear.

[lantzkev]

Quote:

3. How should an Oracle with deafness (curse) communicate with the others? Is there a body language, and if it is, does it count as extra language in game terms?

Deafness is an inability to hear not an inability to speak. Likewise PFS has included the language to learn "read lips" that assuming within 10ft and a perception you can understand what's being said if it's a language you know (ie if they are speaking thassalonian and you only know common and read lips, you still don't know what they are saying)

[lantzkev]

also, if you can swing it through feats go eldritch heritage, then at lvl 7 pick up improved familiar and get a pseudodragon (telepathy) it now acts as your ears, relaying all that it hears to you telepathically.

[Samasboy1]

SRD, Blind condition wrote:

The creature cannot see. It takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and takes a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against the blinded character. Blind creatures must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half speed. Creatures that fail this check fall prone. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.

SRD, Clouded Vision curse wrote:

You cannot see anything beyond 30 feet, but you can see as if you had darkvision.

SRD, Invisible condition wrote:

Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See the invisibility special ability.

Certainly seems like if he couldn't see the attacker, he would lose his Dex bonus to AC (not be Flatfooted, lose his Dex bonus).

[Ector777]

Samasboy1, the Oracle isn't blind - or would you argue that he takes -2 penalty to AC as well? And -4 on Strength and Dexterity skill checks? :)

Are there any "rules guru" here? Opinions may differ, you know.

[Zathyr]

Any time your character is attacked and cannot see the attacker, use the modifiers for "attacker is invisible" because, effectively, they are. In 3.5 it was listed as "attacker unseen" IIRC, but same thing really. The attacker is not visible.

The rules for invisible attackers has already been quoted. They get a +2 and ignore dex. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[Drakkiel]

This was debated a bit ago with drow in an area of darkness and whether the drow should get sneak attack shooting from concealment

Samasboy1 linked exactly what I was going to link in that thread to show how I ruled it

The oracle is blind...at 30 ft (more as he levels though) and should take the same penalties

This is why a lot of people will not play with that curse...it's one helluva drawback but getting blindsense eventually is pretty damn nice

One of my friends/players favorite characters ever was his oracle if life with this curse and he played it very well(RP wise and mechanically)

[Ector777]

Well OK, guys, I'm not taking this curse then :) There is absolutely no sense of playing an oracle of Lore if you have no DEX bonus, and all "ranged touch" spells hit you almost automatically (no AC bonus, no DEX bonus). Even the blindsense/blindsight don't compensate for that.
Thanks for your rulings!

[lantzkev]

you get the dex bonus, just not against targets further than you can see.

[Drakkiel]

Just FYI most ranged touch spells will hit you regardless of this...it takes a lot of investment to bring your touch AC to a point of difficulty to hit

Don't pick it for the mechanic...pick it for the character...and have fun...being blind isn't the end of the world

My friends oracle of life I mentioned started at level 1 and we got to level 14 before starting a new campaign due to new players...it's not the end of the world...makes for hilarious situations

Rustin-life oracle
Drakkar- my half-Orc fighter

The party crests the hill to see Ptolus: City by the Spire, the greatest city ever built...

Drakkar: "We made it Rustin, Ptolus. My God is it not the most beautiful thing you've ever seen!?!"
Rustin: "Oh yea...wonderful looking...how far away are we now?"
Drakkar: "about 6 miles....oh yea...sorry...forgot about your visual handicap"
Rustin: "it's been 3 years...think you would remember"
Drakkar: "I could uh...draw you a picture..."
Rustin: " I really hate you..."

[Remy Balster]

I have a barbarian/life oracle with this curse. The curse sucks, big time, it is a massive penalty, and interferes with my character pretty much constantly... But the character is very complex and battles are technically challenging, and I'm loving it.

He has huge gigantic glaring weaknesses, and it makes playing this guy all the more entertaining.

But yeah... archers are one of those weaknesses. Haha.

I recommend learning obscuring mist.

[Zathyr]

There are a number of ways to compensate. Walls, for instance. Stay within sight of walls that exist (like in a typical urban or dungeon setting) and/or cast some of your own when things get dicey. One Obscuring Mist will level the playing field, or give you the advantage at higher levels (or at low levels as an oracle of waves). Basically the same kind of battlefield control that many casters use anyway.

[Ector777]

Thanks for the Obscuring Mist advice, but it blocks even darkvision, so my oracle will see absolutely nothing until 10th level :) I guess a Deaf oracle has much better synergy with Silence. Unfortunately, an Oracle of Lore has no Survival, and I'm not going to pump her wisdom, so the scent is going to be wasted...
I may simply gain a heavy armor proficiency someway and ignore the DEX bonus to AC :) It's a pity though, as Sidestep Secret is a very good revelation. Alternatively, I can take another curse.

[lantzkev]

don't forget lunar mystery and nature mystery both provide cha to ac, although one improves CMB, other reflex as well.

[Samasboy1]

Ector777 wrote:

Samasboy1, the Oracle isn't blind - or would you argue that he takes -2 penalty to AC as well?

Yes, he would.

Ector777 wrote:

And -4 on Strength and Dexterity skill checks? :)

Only if he is somehow using a Strength or Dex check on something more than 30 feet away. :)

SRD, Blindsense wrote:

Blindsense lets a creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

As you can see, even if you have an ability that tells you exactly where the opponent is, you still lose your Dex bonus if you can't see them.

So, given that the Oracle can't see opponents more than 30 feet away at all, losing their Dex bonus is definitely the right call.

Blindsight, on the other hand, is exactly like sight through non-visual means and you don't lose your Dex bonus (at least vs. attacks in your Blindsight range).