Transformative Special Materials


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does a Transformative weapon, made of a Special Material, such as Adamantine, or Mithral, still continue to count as said material, when transformed?

Example: Adamantine Greataxe transformed into Quarterstaff.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Does a Transformative weapon, made of a Special Material, such as Adamantine, or Mithral, still continue to count as said material, when transformed?

Example: Adamantine Greataxe transformed into Quarterstaff.

uhm... hmm...

well I don't think a greataxe can transform into a double weapon like a quarterstaff.

but if it COULD, I'd imagine that its tips would be capped in the special material, and the weapon would have the special materials characteristics as far as attacks go.

however as far as overall HP goes, its body would still probably be made of wood, and have woods hp and hardness (plus whatever enhancements it has).

A greataxe WOULD be able to transform into something like a Halberd, or spear.

Grand Lodge

Both are two handed weapons.

If easier, use this example:

Cold Iron Longsword transformed into a Club.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Both are two handed weapons.

If easier, use this example:

Cold Iron Longsword transformed into a Club.

they are both two handed weapons, yes, but they are not both DOUBLE weapons.

double weapons have all sorts of special requirements for magic.

Grand Lodge

Let's not go into Double weapons then. For now.

One thing at a time.

Another example:

Wyrroot Greatclub transformed into Greatsword.

Lantern Lodge

Wow...

Just wow, Wyroot for a Magus with an 18-20 weapon? That would be awesome!

Lantern Lodge

Though, I think it'd be fair to say that if it transforms, whatever it transforms into needs to be able to be made out of that material or you lose that materials properties.

I always did wish there was a way to get an 18-20 wyroot weapon in a light or one handed weapon.


The spell is odd it says:

Quote:
...becoming any other melee weapon of the same general shape and handedness; the weapon's categorization as simple, martial, or exotic is irrelevant.

A longsword and a flail are made up of different materials and thus each have different hardness rating, yet you can still transform it from one to the other so the spell must be able to transmute metal to wood.

Quote:

Adamantine

Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.

Since the spell can transmute metal to wood and you can't have an adamantine quarterstaff, the spell would transmute the adamantine to wood. Since the item is no longer made of adamantine, it wouldn't be considered adamantine.

Grand Lodge

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:
Though, I think it'd be fair to say that if it transforms, whatever it transforms into needs to be able to be made out of that material or you lose that materials properties.

That's what's being asked.

At this point, that is not proven either way.

Grand Lodge

It is a Magic Weapon Enchantment.

Not a spell.

Grand Lodge

It notes only a change in shape, not composition.

I am not sure how that effects the final transformation.

Silver Crusade

As you said yourself, it doesn't say anything about changing composition.

However, it also says that if it has Keen in it's base form and it turns into a blunt weapon then it would lose Keen until it's a slashing weapon again. That makes it seem that you're not supposed to be able to get a weapon normally unobtainable. That's an RAI argument though and not RAW.

I don't think you're going to find a clear answer outside of a FAQ, so I'll tag it for you.

Personally, I would just go with what makes sense. It specifically says it changes its shape but has no mention of material. I think it makes no sense at all to assume that the material changes when all the weapon is doing is changing shape. It makes sense that Keen is suppressed when it's a blunt weapon because Keen is about being super duper sharp. I would say it retains the original material properties while transformed.

I would say RAW is more weighted on your side, but could still swing either way at this point.

Grand Lodge

Well, for some of my examples, I see no problem with a adamantine/mithral/cold iron Quarterstaff or Club.

Silver Crusade

For the record, I think you should be allowed to turn it into a Quarterstaff from a Greatsword or something like that from a peer RAW standpoint. I feel the "It's wielded differently" argument doesn't hold weight when a Flail is wielded much differently than a Scimitar but you can switch between those two perfectly fine.

The main problem I see with it is that a double weapon is a weapon on both sides and can be enchanted differently. If you transform, do both sides have the magical enchantments or just one? That's another gray area. It makes sense that both sides are of the material (you're already paying 10K for the enchantment, which is plenty to cover both sides of special material cost), but it starts to become pretty exploitable from a cost standpoint if other magical enchantments start applying to both sides.

Grand Lodge

For non-double weapons transformed into double weapons, I expect only one side to have the benefits of enchantments.

There seems to be a precedent amongst spells/abilities to have it work this way.

Even if we follow this precedent with Special Materials, you still have one end counting as said material.

I, in practice, would avoid double/non-double transformations because of this.

I am much more interested in a simpler issue.

Special Material weapons continuing to count as said Special Materials, after transformation.

Grand Lodge

You know, this is not my first question about this enchantment.

None of them ever seem to get any kind of answer.

Scarab Sages

It says it alter's it's shape, and says nothing about material.

Seems good to me. Get's my OK. Bring on the Adamantine clubs. And, More importantly: Obsidian Greatswords.

Lantern Lodge

Most important: Wyroot Scimitar. Near endless arcane pool on a magus, heck yeah!

Grand Lodge

If it seems odd for a weapon to be made of the material, I suppose it's good to remember that it is magic.

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