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My name is Onion Fieldmouse. Halfling Rogue. I am a 5th Level Knife Master.
I am standing in 5ft behind my target. His name is Grut Babadus. A 7th level, half-ogre warrior of ill repute.
He is completely oblivious to my presence.
I am duel wielding daggers and I have 2-wpn fighting, double slice and wpn. finesse.
I go full attack on him.
With all my bonuses, +8/+8 to hit, he is flat footed, so I do:
(1d3+3d8+1) damage + (1d3+3d8+1) Damage.
We then roll initiative and I beat him.
So I repeat the process only he is not flat footed.
I do another (1d3+3d8+1) damage + ( 1d3+3d8+1) Damage.
This is my design! ;-)
What can I say? I was rolling well!
Is this correct? Please advise.
Thanks!
I don't understand your question, and it seems like you've made a lot of assumptions.
In any event, if you are asking if your damage is correct we would need to know you're strength and dexterity. But yes, your damage from sneak attack would be 3d8. Small daggers do deal 1d3.
However, you should note that after your first attack he is aware of your prescence meaning you cannot use stealth against him at that point to get sneak attack (without doing some other stuff). However, if you've managed to get a surprise round against him then his is flat-footed. The flat-foted condition persists until his first turn in combat.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
But also remember, that in a surprise round you only get a move action or standard action. Not a full round action. So, in the surprise round at best you can get 1 attack against him. However, this would require you to charge him. This is because (assuming you do not have some special ability not stated here) you cannot use stealth to remain unobserved without cover/concealment.
So you could be lurking behind something hiding from him and he could fail his perception check. At which point you could move toward him. When you ended your turn your stealth would break (because there is nothing for you to hide behind) and you would not get a surprise round. If you were lucky you would have a higher initiative then him and still get a sneak attack.
Or you could perform some standard action without moving, remain in cover/concealment.
Or you could charge him. When charging in a surprise round you are only allowed to move up to your normal movement speed, 20ft for a halfing, not double as on a normal charge. However, this would enable you to move towards the enemy and attack him while flat-footed at least once in the surprise round. If your initiative beats his you can get a full-attack action against him while flat-footed. However, if he beats your initiative you get no more sneak attacks.
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Hmmm...
not sure I follow.
My standard action in the surprise round is to go stab-stab, sneak sneak.
then in the 1st round of proper combat he is STILL flat footed (that bit i understand now, thanks) and as my standard action I go stab-stab, sneak-sneak.
Why can i not get both attacks in, in the surprise round?!
(also loved how you attached the official ruling there - thanks again!)
Standard action allows a single attack (main hand). Full round action allows a full attack (main hand and offhand).
There's no way to actually get a second attack, even from your offhand knife, with a standard action.
You'd get one attack during the surprise round, as you only get a standard action and cannot full attack. Also, the ogre remains flat footed until he acts in combat. After the surprise round he would remain flat footed for your full attack assuming you did go first in the first full round of combat. Once the ogre is no longer flat footed, you lose sneak attack damage unless you are flanking with an ally or can make him flat footed (via invisibility or something).
I'm not sure where the d8's are from instead of d6's for the sneak attacks, but I know it is possible to do that (I just don't have all my books with me to figure out how it is done).
This is why I always recommend a 1 level dip into Wizard (Diviner) for any rogue or ninja. You get a +1 to Initiative, ALWAYS get to act in the surprise round, Can roll a d20 at the start of a round and replace a roll with it several times per day as a free action, get a few cantrips and level 1 spells (true strike, expeditious retreat, vanish come to mind), and get a familiar (hello little dinosaur that grants +4 to initiative and a poison). The poison is HD based so improves as you level, even if you only take the 1 level dip.
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Hmm.....
ok.
I would like official rulling please with an attachment from the official site (since http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Surprise does NOT state you only get a single attack in surprise attack, it merely says standard action and my standard action is "stab-stab") and or a page from the rule book.
If my BAB was +6/+1 then my full attack would be +4/+4/-1 but i agree i would NOT get all of that in my surprise round. I would however get +4/+4.
So back to Onion Fieldmouse, I maintain he would get "stab-stab" b4 we even pick up the d20s.
I think..........
Please advise further.
Thanks.
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I am assuming you have a 22 dex and +1 daggers. That is what you would need for +8/+8. +3 BAB + 6 DEX + 1 enhancement -2 TWF and would account for your 1d3+1 damage without the sneak attack.
On the surprise round you can't use TWF since you are limited to a standard action, but you would get an extra +2 to hit because you don't have the TWF penalties that round.
Edit: and I am also assuming a STR of 10 with that damage, making Double Slice do absolutely nothing.
Hmm.....
ok.
I would like official rulling please with an attachment from the official site (since http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Surprise does NOT state you only get a single attack in surprise attack, it merely says standard action and my standard action is "stab-stab") and or a page from the rule book.If my BAB was +6/+1 then my full attack would be +4/+4/-1 but i agree i would NOT get all of that in my surprise round. I would however get +4/+4.
So back to Onion Fieldmouse, I maintain he would get "stab-stab" b4 we even pick up the d20s.
I think..........
Please advise further.
Thanks.
How about that you read the section about combat yourself then you'll realise that a Standard Action means ONE attack and not the full attack option?
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Standard Action: A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly to make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.
Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table: Actions in Combat for a list of full-round actions.
To performa a full attack action is a full round action. In order to get more than one attack in a round you must use a full attack action (or have some special ability like pounce, which you do not).
Therefore, in a surprise round you can either do a move action or a standard action. Charge is a special case becasuse:
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on combat maneuver attack rolls made to bull rush an opponent.
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Which allows you to make a charge in a surprise round.
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So back to Onion Fieldmouse, I maintain he would get "stab-stab" b4 we even pick up the d20s.I think..........
Please advise further.
Thanks.
Multiple Attacks
A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.
Hmm.....
ok.
I would like official rulling please with an attachment from the official site (since http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Surprise does NOT state you only get a single attack in surprise attack, it merely says standard action and my standard action is "stab-stab") and or a page from the rule book.If my BAB was +6/+1 then my full attack would be +4/+4/-1 but i agree i would NOT get all of that in my surprise round. I would however get +4/+4.
So back to Onion Fieldmouse, I maintain he would get "stab-stab" b4 we even pick up the d20s.
I think..........
Please advise further.
Thanks.
You should know that demanding an "official ruling" when the rules are clearly stated on the PRD, which is the website you should reference as it is the official website instead of D20pfsrd, only upsets people. (I will admit that d20pfsrd is actually updated more quickly than the PRD and is, and it is frustrating). But when referencing rules you are uncertain on check the PRD first.
I posted all the rules above, hopefully this will allow you to understand where your mistake is.
A standard action allows only a single attack, period.
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Thanks for your help guys.
Hey Claxon if my request has..........
"upset" you..............I apologise.
Thanks again all.
Not me specifically, but the developers hate to deal with "entitled" players. The get very tired of FAQ request and requests by players for clarifications of things which are obvious.
In the future I would suggest you ask for people to help you locate the rulings rather than "demand an official ruling" as if you believe your problem is important enough to merit the rules team to step in and clarify things. The staff at Paizo works very hard, and inundating them with request like this is something we should strive to avoid.
If this is a homebrew game, you can always ask you DM if he'd allow you to get one attack with each weapon as a standard action. I have allowed it in games I've DM'd and have seen it allowed in game I've played in. Generally, a THF build is superior to a TWF build because he is less feat intensive, has less or no penalty to attack (and when he does it is for a very nice benefit, I'm looking at you power attack), and is not as hampered by being limited to a standard action attack. Allowing a single offhand attack along with your standard action levels the playing field a bit. Your results may vary, but in my experience, it has not negatively affected the games I've been involved in.
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If this is a homebrew game, you can always ask you DM if he'd allow you to get one attack with each weapon as a standard action. I have allowed it in games I've DM'd and have seen it allowed in game I've played in. Generally, a THF build is superior to a TWF build because he is less feat intensive, has less or no penalty to attack (and when he does it is for a very nice benefit, I'm looking at you power attack), and is not as hampered by being limited to a standard action attack. Allowing a single offhand attack along with your standard action levels the playing field a bit. Your results may vary, but in my experience, it has not negatively affected the games I've been involved in.
I wouldn't allow this for multiple reasons, the main one being that it takes a two weapon fighter archetype nine levels to get that ability. That archetype sucks if everyone gets that for free.
It is a case of the relatively common misunderstanding of two-weapon fighting. It provides an additional iterative attack, made at your full BAB and with the offhand weapon. Iterative attacks, which means any attack after the first one, require full attacks. A simple confusion of terms and concepts.