Wild Shape and Creature Size

[Jato Jay]

So, I ask this to a lot of players, and in all honestly, not a single one of them ever gives me the same answer.

When wild shaping, you apply the size modifier of the creature you are shaping into. Size categories, and thus their bonuses to Stealth, CMB, CMD, and AC, seem mutually exclusive to me. So basically the question I have involves wild shaping from a creature with previous size bonuses to another shape which also has size bonuses.

From gnome race description:
"Size: Gnomes are Small creatures and thus gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks."

A large creature instead gains -1 to AC, -1 to attack rolls, +1 CMB, +1 CMD, and -4 Stealth.

OK, now the question: Do you remove/reverse previous size bonuses before applying new ones? In other words, would a gnome wild shaping into a large creature have a net 0 bonus to AC, because small size grants +1 and large size grants -1, and likewise for other things effected by size? Or would the gnome have a net -1 AC, because the old size modifier is first removed (-1 to cancel out the +1 bonus) and then the new one is applied?

Thanks in advance for any responses clarifying this.

[Rikkan]

A small creature will have a +1 bonus to AC from its size and a large creature will have -1 to AC from its size.

So a small creature that shapes into a large creature would lose 2 AC from the change (though might gain / lose more AC from changes to dex and natural armour etc).

- Edit: Maybe it helps if you think of it like this.
Size does not give you a permanent bonus but works more like a condition, say sickened.
If you are small, you apply the small modifiers, if you're not small you don't get the small modifiers, but the ones for your actual size.

[Jeff Morse]

^^ what he said. I have found that big or small you get about the same. bigger size get strength but loose on size mod. course tiny with dex to hit and win, win.

[Nefreet]

Jato Jay wrote:

OK, now the question: Do you remove/reverse previous size bonuses before applying new ones?

I think if you look at it that way you'll only confuse yourself. If you're no longer small, you no longer receive the benefits/penalties of being small. This is true whether you grow smaller or larger.

A naked, average Gnome has a base AC of 11 (+1 size, +0 Dex, +0 Natural)

The same Gnome wildshaped into a Dire Wolf has an AC of 12 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +4 Natural)

Whereas a naked, average Human has a base AC of 10 (+0 size, +0 Dex, +0 Natural) and a wildshaped AC of 12 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +4 Natural)

Notice that both the Gnome and the Human have the same AC in wildshape, but not in their regular form. This is because the bonuses and penalties for size and wildshaping are the same across the board.

Edit: Well, except when you're really tiny and polymorphing to really big, but that's a different topic of conversation.

[Jato Jay]

Thanks guys! You all definitely answered my question!