Reach + Tanglevine = ?

[Ambrus]

If my character has natural reach, say of 10-ft, and uses a special ranged ability like the Tanglevine power from the Verdant Sorcerer bloodline; "you can create a 15-foot-long, animated vine that springs from your hand". Does the vine's range remain fixed at 15-ft or, since I can reach my hand out 10-ft from my body and the vine is described as starting from my hand, does that mean the vine actually has a 25-ft range?

[Kazaan]

Keep in mind that the 5' square your character occupies is rather quite a bit bigger than the space an actual person takes up. Measure out a 5x5 foot square on the floor and stand in the middle; take a look at how much free space you have in which to move around. Now put another 5x5 square next to this one and have someone else stand there and see how easily you can reach them. Pick up a 5' stick (roughly the size of a Greatsword) and see how easily you can reach them. Combat involves moving around in your square and temporarily "invading" someone else's territory to make attacks before returning to your own tactical spot. You're "anchored" to your 5' square, make short excursions out of it to reach your opponent, then return to a ready stance. This isn't incorporated into using the Tanglevine; it's presumed that you just stay in your own spot and manipulate the vine from there with out much tactical excursion. So, even if you have a natural 10' reach, you just disregard that because you're using a whole different set of mechanics here with Tanglevine.

[Kalridian]

I don't know of any RAW supporting that claim, Kazaan. Since the tanglevine is used to make combat maneuvers, it most closely resembles a weapon that can not be used for a normal attack. If a Character normally has reach and the equips a reach weapon, they would be added too, so I'd say treat the tanglevine as a 15 ft reach weapon (like a whip) and add the numbers.

[Kazaan]

It's more like it's a limb with a new natural reach. A reach weapon doubles your natural reach but also excludes your natural reach. So, with 10' natural reach and a reach weapon, you double your reach to 20', but you can't attack at 5-10'. The vine is more like a limb with 15' natural reach than a reach weapon, since you don't lose the ability to attack at less than this new reach. So it's like replacing your 10' reach hand with a 15' reach hand.

[Kalridian]

I get that you're saying that, I understood that from your first post. But I still don't see which rules you're using as a basis. You read the description and decide that it's a new limb that replaces normal reach, but it does not say so in any part of the description of the Tanglevine Power.

As far as I see it, it can be interpreted in both ways and RAW determining which interpretation is right, is yet to be presented.

Also, I don't know where you get the idea that a reach weapon doubles your reach and therefor gives you 20 reach if you have 10 natural reach. Afaik reach weapons add a flat 5ft (or whatever they are granting, whip for example)to the normal reach of a character.

Edit for spelling

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

Kalridian wrote:

Also, I don't know where you get the idea that a reach weapon doubles your reach and therefor gives you 20 reach if you have 10 natural reach. Afaik reach weapons add a flat 5ft (or whatever they are granting, whip for example)to the normal reach of a character.

Here

[Ambrus]

So there's no definitive answer to this?

[Bronnwynn]

It's a spell-like ability with a specific range. Your reach doesn't play into it.

[blahpers]

It has the range specified--15 feet, full stop, just as huge creatures don't cast proportionally bigger fireballs and storm giants don't get any extra range to their scorching ray spells.

[Covert Operator]

A bit late to the party, but I actually disagree about that.
It doesn't say you 'make a combat maneuver against a creature within 15 feet,' nor that you 'gain an attack that has a reach of 15 feet.' All it says is you 'create a 15-foot long, animated vine that springs from your hand.'
Think about it. The vine is 15-ft long. The vine comes from your hand. Your hand can reach 10 feet, instead of 5. So it would have a reach of 20 feet (not 25)

[Murdock Mudeater]

Ambrus wrote:

If my character has natural reach, say of 10-ft, and uses a special ranged ability like the Tanglevine power from the Verdant Sorcerer bloodline; "you can create a 15-foot-long, animated vine that springs from your hand". Does the vine's range remain fixed at 15-ft or, since I can reach my hand out 10-ft from my body and the vine is described as starting from my hand, does that mean the vine actually has a 25-ft range?

Seems like one of those ones that is more complicated the more you think about it...

Quote:

Tanglevine (Sp): At 1st level, as a standard action, you can create a 15-foot-long, animated vine that springs from your hand. This vine lasts for 1 round and can be used to make a single disarm, steal, or trip combat maneuver, using your sorcerer level plus your Charisma modifier in place of your normal CMB. You can use this power a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Rule doesn't really say it has a range of 15ft, just that the created vine is 15ft long. Not sure if reach applies, only because power doesn't really have a listed range to begin with.

The intended wording is likely that it adds 15ft to your normal reach for determining valid targets for this ability, but it certainly doesn't say that.

[Cevah]

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

Kalridian wrote:

Also, I don't know where you get the idea that a reach weapon doubles your reach and therefor gives you 20 reach if you have 10 natural reach. Afaik reach weapons add a flat 5ft (or whatever they are granting, whip for example)to the normal reach of a character.

Here

Fixed: Here

PRD wrote:

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Note it refers to "typical Small or Medium wielder" and not a creature with 10' reach.

Given the spell text, I say treat it as a whip, since it functionally acts like one and is the size of one.

/cevah