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Alright, so as far as I am aware, SLAYER from the playtest of ACG is legal for PFS, and upon release of the guide, the final results will come into effect or whatever.
SO, ONTO BUSINESS!
I love fighters, and I hate all other classes, but I look at Slayer, and see how things are looking pretty nice for what I want to do in PFS. Being able to grab Shield Slam, and Shield Mastery WITHOUT twf sounds amazing! The fact that I can actually have a ton of skills AND have class skills that are useful is awesome too!
I want help building this class, with other suggestions if something superior exists for me to consider, but mainly taking Slayer for 6 levels, and then continuing Fighter for maybe the rest of the way, unless better options exist that is.
I want to use the Fighter's "Brawler" Archetype so I can grab the +3 damage to close weapons group, and be able to get weapon specialization too. As far as feats, I want to try and use Shatter Defenses/Cornugon Smash, but I'm skeptical about Intimidating Prowess being important or not.
I absolutely want to dump CHA in order to get STR and DEX to 16 each, because I want to hit/damage, and I prefer AC over HP, so I'm thinking the typical 16, 16, 12, 10, 12, 7 deal.
I am not sure what is legal in PFS and ask for your help to easily distinguish what is and isn't using your helpful knowledge. I want to have a Spiked Heavy Shield and apply bashing to it as well, but I am not certain on how items are considered to be calculated with fame and such (spikes and the shield are separate items?). I want to take total advantage of Shield Master with negating attack penalties, and using enhancements to go nuts.
Bull Rush Bump
Are classes from ACG even PFS legal? It's not even published yet.
Depending on if you have a need for skill points will determine if you can dump Intelligence and increase your Strength to an 18. After all, if you're a Slayer for 6 levels, you have 4 skills per level, followed by 2 skills per level from Fighter. With the -2, it'd be 1.5 skills per level, which you can skate by since the only thing a character absolutely has to have is Perception. And for a melee, you don't need much else besides maybe Climb/Swim in the lower levels, and Slayer skills cover that, not to mention being Human and stuff can help. If you need some more points, lowering Constitution is your best bet, since losing an AC means you take a hit's worth of damage, versus the 1 HP per level.
I'd honestly drop having 6 Fighter levels; yes, the 4 bonus feats and the Weapon Training could be nice, though at the same time you might want levels in, say, Invulnerable (Urban) Barbarian instead, since the increases in Strength and/or Constitution (or Dexterity) are a lot better to invest in. Not to mention some great rage powers help out a lot in being able to ragecycle (which being Human becomes very awesome in).
Also, take a look at what the Bashing property says in comparison to what Shield Spikes says. Whether they are intended to stack is hard to say, by rights they both increase the size as if they were X categories larger, though there has been evidence in 3.X that has allowed these effects to stack. I'd talk to your GM about how he would run this before you get into it. At worst, you'll simply just also be able to deal both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage with 2 damage dice larger.
Find what's available here.
I'm hoping for people to help me quickly distinguish what is and isn't legal, so I don't need to go through all my books, and the books that are not currently with me. I'm aware that I can use the resources to find out exactly what is legal on what page and such though.
So far this is what I have made, and I don't think I want to have bullrush be a main focus, but Shield Slam is a great way to move guys around, and get them prone.
1-6 Slayer
1. Improved shield Bash, Power Attack, (favored target, track)
2. (Shield Ranger Style) Shield Slam
3. Weapon Focus Spiked Shield, (sneak attack 1d6)
4. (Combat Trick) Intimidating Prowess
5. Dazzling Display, (2nd favored target)
6. (Shield Ranger Style) Shield Master, (sneak attack 2d6)
7-10 Fighter (Brawler ARCHETYPE, not ACP)
7. Courogon Smash
8. Shatter Defenses, (Close Control)
9. Bleeding Assault(Close Combatant)
10. Weapon Specialization Spiked Shield
11-?? Need suggestions
11. Dazing Assault
12. ???
Depending on if you have a need for skill points will determine if you can dump Intelligence and increase your Strength to an 18. After all, if you're a Slayer for 6 levels, you have 4 skills per level, followed by 2 skills per level from Fighter. With the -2, it'd be 1.5 skills per level, which you can skate by since the only thing a character absolutely has to have is Perception. And for a melee, you don't need much else besides maybe Climb/Swim in the lower levels, and Slayer skills cover that, not to mention being Human and stuff can help. If you need some more points, lowering Constitution is your best bet, since losing an AC means you take a hit's worth of damage, versus the 1 HP per level.
I'd honestly drop having 6 Fighter levels; yes, the 4 bonus feats and the Weapon Training could be nice, though at the same time you might want levels in, say, Invulnerable (Urban) Barbarian instead, since the increases in Strength and/or Constitution (or Dexterity) are a lot better to invest in. Not to mention some great rage powers help out a lot in being able to ragecycle (which being Human becomes very awesome in).
Also, take a look at what the Bashing property says in comparison to what Shield Spikes says. Whether they are intended to stack is hard to say, by rights they both increase the size as if they were X categories larger, though there has been evidence in 3.X that has allowed these effects to stack. I'd talk to your GM about how he would run this before you get into it. At worst, you'll simply just also be able to deal both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage with 2 damage dice larger.
This is going to be for Pathfinder Society, and it's a 20 point buy. Dumping INT seems like a great idea with all these skill points, and when I change over to fighter, I am pretty okay with just investing one point into things from my human Race if need be, so thank you for that great idea.
I'm aware of bashing, and I believe I need to apply a +1 to my shields armor enhancement, then I may apply bash as a +1 charge.
A big concern for me is figuring out how fame in PFS interacts with the weapon (spikes/enhancements) portion, and the armor (shield/enhancements) portion of the item, when considering the spending cap.
I am confused with Shield Slam with using a full attack. I don't think I can follow with an enemy on a full attack, unless it is just to travel with my 5 ft step.
What is your race?
This is feat intensive, so I am going Human. Slayer works out great with overriding requirements, and giving pretty awesome feats earlier, with a added side of sneak attack and favored target :)
Traits right now seem like Defensive Strategist and Defender of the society, which will allow me not to be counted as flat footed out of initiative order, and give a +1 to AC while in Medium armor.
The concept I have right now is to get Shield Master, and take full advantage of the shield getting crazy enhancements, and the fact that all penalties get negated. Move targets toward walls, and force them prone, and from there continue to move them wherever I want them to go. If an enemy is putting the heat on me, I will simply make an attack, and make it so they most likely are too far away to make a full attack on me next round.
Shattering Defenses with all the other feats to allow intimidate on a power attack will pretty much add my 2d6 sneak attack along with all my swings to hit like crazy. Debuffing creatures is helpful to the entire party as well.
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I strongly recommend holding on for one more level of Slayer. At 7th level Slayers get to Favored Target as a Swift instead of Move action, an action economy benefit not to be overestimated.
Though honestly, I don't see the point of taking any Fighter levels as a Slayer, you can get all the bonuses (or equivalent ones) except Armor Training without multiclassing at all. I mean, I guess Weapon Training plus Gloves of Dueling, but that doesn't kick in until 11th or 12th, and Weapon Specialization only precedes it by a level.
Feat wise you can literally spend all your Slayer Talents on Feats (2nd, 6th, and 10th on Ranger Style, 4th and 8th on combat trick and weapon training, 12th on a Feat), making you only one behind the Fighter.
@ Rapanuii:
Remember you still get a minimum of one skill point per level from your class; your Human skill points aren't affected when you dump, meaning you get a minimum of 2, 3 from Slayer levels, meaning ~1.67 skill points per level, which should be plenty if you're just going to be a damaging martial.
When you get Shield Master, remember that your Armor enhancements to your shield count as Weapon enhancements as well; in addition, the Bashing property considers the shield as a +1 Weapon when you bash, meaning you can fit any weapon properties on there when you have a +5(AC) Bashing Heavy Shield. This also means you shouldn't get any Weapon Enhancements (that is, +1 to hit and damage enhancements), since Shield Master will cover this base for you.
I'd also note that Shield Spikes and the Bashing property won't stack; Bashing increases by 2 sizes. (I'll also tell you that the Impact property won't work either, since it's the same effect.) That being said, being able to swap between Piercing and Bludgeoning damage between fights, or inbetween rounds, is still useful for overcoming DR in the early levels.
I'd try to enhance your shield's AC bonus to the maximum first, since a +5 Shield with Shield Master will allow you to overcome all forms of DR besides DR/-. Plus an extra 5 to hit and damage is pretty nice...
I overlooked the swift action, and that might make me reconsider going fighter at 7.
Brawler (Fighter Archetype, and not the new ACG class) ability at level 3 grants the weapon training deal, plus gives +3 damage to all close weapons (includes spiked shields). So, I can get Gloves of Dueling, and then at level 10, I can weapon specialize for even more damage.
I am thinking that maybe level 10 to grab that slayer ability, because it will be better than weapon specialization, then at 11 to go back to fighter. Perhaps continuing slayer would be best from there because of the sneak attack and other benefits.
@Darksol the Painbringer, you're saying that no matter what your int is, that you will be awarded at least 1 skill point? So if I bombed my int, I would always get 1 from my class, and due to being human, I would get another from that, correct?
If I want weapon enhancements, then I need to put a +1 weapon enhancement on my shield, right, because the bashing only counts as a +1 weapon enhancement when dealing with bashing? I think the idea is to put +1 weapon on the spikes, and then put other enhancements on the weapon, like elemental damage or whatever (haven't looked that far yet).
Every argument I've seen with the shield/bashing/spikes ended up with it all stacking to a 2d6 one handed weapon.
I am going to also think about making a cestus a defending weapon too, so I can apply more AC.
If I shield slam on a full attack, can I travel with the creature beyond 5ft and continue my full attack? Can I travel more than 5ft at all once I declared a full attack, with my shield slam?
Correct. Slayer gives 4 per level, having a 7 Intelligence reduces this to 2; adding in Human makes it 3 per level. You'll always have a minimum of 2 per level, regardless of what class you take.
RAW, you would be right in that the Bashing makes it serve as a +1 Weapon for bashing, though since a +1 Weapon would otherwise function as useless when not making attacks (since a +1[AC] Bashing Shield already has a +1 Enhancement for hit points and hardness), the intent behind it is to treat it as a +1 Weapon for weapon special abilities as well. Outside that, increasing the damage dice as if it were 2 sizes larger is a nice feature.
Remember that the Spikes on a shield increase damage dice as if it were 1 size larger, and by RAW it wouldn't stack with the Bashing property in this regard. James Jacobs, Paizo's Creative Director, also says that the stacking of these abilities is not intended in Pathfinder. though the 3.5 FAQ says they do, which is why I suggest you ask the GM as to how they would run it.
To be honest, a Heavy Shield already gives a lot of AC, a total of +7 when it's fully enhanced, and that's not including Shield Focus, or Greater Shield Focus, not to mention adding its base benefits to your CMD via Shield Specialization (4th level Fighter). With a dip in Fighter, you get full proficiencies, meaning Mithril Full Plate/Tatami-Do is good to go, and you keep the Shield's AC when you make Shield Bashes; wearing a Defending Cestus may not be a bad idea, though by that point you might as well just put the Defending property on the shield you're using and grant yourself a total of 12 AC from that Shield, with the Shield still making attacks as a +1 Weapon (thanks to the Bashing property).
I'd also consider taking a Throwing Heavy Shield for ranged combat if you don't want to resort to using Bows like every other joe has to.
Unfortunately yes, you can only 5 foot when making a Full Attack unless you have an ability that allows you to make a movement action for free or something; there is such a thing, but it's banned in PFS. (If I am correct though, there is a Barbarian Rage Power called No Escape that can accomplish this via Attacks of Opportunity, and works perfectly with Combat Reflexes.)
I might start with one level for fighter if I really want that trait, but I will consider other options, especially if someone has something to suggest being great for this build.
The bashing and spikes do stack. The item itself goes up a size, then the bashing magically makes that item goes up two sizes.
I've not heard of a throwing heavy shield, but I'm assuming it's some exotic thing.
Shield focus feats look like a waste compared to all the other useful feats I can have, and putting defending on my shield would reduce the punishment my shield would deal, right? I'd rather just invest in another weapon that I can easily wield, and toss the bonus over to my ac.
Those quick runner shirts legal for pfs? I forget exactly how they work, but maybe I can fit it in if they're allowed.
A +1 bonus to AC while wearing armor isn't a bad way to spend a trait, though there are better ones available to you. Reactionary and Indomitable Faith are the 2 best general choice traits in the game, and can do so much more than what a mere +1 AC ever could.
A mundane effect and a magical effect stacking to me makes sense, though regardless of that JJ still says they aren't intended to stack like that. Just a word of caution, really, since some PFS GMs can be real jerks when it comes to that.
It is an attachment you can give to the shield, though doing so does make it an Exotic weapon. If you went Half Elf, you can get an Exotic Weapon Proficiency bonus feat with exchanging the Skill Focus bonus feat for it, and you can have 2 favored classes, so it is something to consider. You can also make it a Quickdraw Shield, able to be drawn and donned as a Swift Action, I believe.
Yes, it would, but if you put it on a second weapon like a Cestus (which, as far as I know, you wouldn't be able to Two-Hand the Shield, or if you could, it would be with penalties), it will cost you a lot more money, since you have to enhance it as a weapon, in addition to the costs of enhancing your shield as an armor, plus the Bashing property.
I just realized the favored class deal that I would be in with multiple classes, so thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to right now look at these weapons you mentioned that are all captain America like.
Cestus would give absolutely no issues for combat especially with two handing.
The Brawler Archetypes version of Weapon Training, Fighters Weapon Specialization, and having Duel Gloves seems like a big loss, but this is how I would lay things if I went straight Slayer. I might consider 3 levels of Fighter/Brawler and I did mess up before and could immediately have Shatter Defenses at level 7 by taking Fighter with the combat bonus feat they get at level 1.
1. Improved shield Bash, Power Attack, (favored target, track)
2. (Shield Ranger Style) Shield Slam
3. Intimidating Prowess, (sneak attack 1d6)
4. (Weapon Training) Weapon Focus Spiked Shield
5. Dazzling Display, (2nd favored target)
6. (Shield Ranger Style) Shield Master, (sneak attack 2d6)
7. Courogon Smash, (stalker), (swift action favored target)
8. (Combat Trick) Shatter Defenses
9. ???, (Sneak Attack 3d6)
10. (Advanced talent) Deadly Sneak, (3rd Favored Target)
@deadman, I forgot to correct that, so thank you.
Unfortunately the Brawler Archetype and Gloves of Duelling doesn't mix. FAQ link here
One day I'll actually go through all the Fighter Archetypes and list out which ones can use the Gloves of Duelling.
I'm not exactly sure I understand what's being said in that faq. Brawler uses the close weapons group, so doesn't it fit like the first one?
Compare what the Dragoon archetype says versus the Brawler archetype, and you'll notice a difference:
At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon’s weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level).
At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level).
The Spear Training calls out as functioning just like Weapon Training, being forced to select a specific group for the ability to function with, and calls out the benefits of the feature as a "weapon training bonus," subjects which are abstract in the Close Combatant ability, which instead cites a specific group to which a listed benefit is granted, and it doesn't call this benefit out as a "weapon training bonus".
Fighter wasn't bad enough, huh
I am playing this character tomorrow I'm pfs. Any last second advice?