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We beat mini bbeg, and find a piece of jewelry. My character takes it, but then another character attempts to sleight of hand to steal it. He fails tremendously, even though he has a high roll, but it's in my hands as I'm looking/talking about it, and so is everyone else.
I originally had the whole thing written out in detail, but my phone ate it up. Pretty much this guy was being a jerk, but I want to know if him attempting to steal the item is pvp. I took things well during this, and mind you that the details of things spoken by this person aren't here, but it was making me feel like using the steal cmb and stripping him naked.
I'll fill in the details later if anyone wants to know further.
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Here is the pvp further explained outside of the game world, which is PLAYER VS PLAYER based.
Best mini bbeg and I take item, then he declared that he was stealing it. I say "good luck beating my cmd with your steal" and the table went silent with his mention of the action, and some upset. He instead rolls for a soh, and the item is in plain sight in my hands being actively looked at. I don't even look and roll perception, and his 27 means nothing because it can't happen... Like my character should put this guy into the other dimension for the disrespect, or strip his ass down until he is naked by showing him how it's done with steal cmb. He is a rogue, and I'm a cmb fighter.
So, my action is to push his hands away, then push him away and speak, "not today butterfingers! Don't try that again." Then I precede to place said item into the front inside of my pants. "I will notice this missing"
He is hard to read with how he personally speaks and looks must of the time with emotions, but so far it's being interpreted that he is a jerk right now, and upset with me. He speaks out of character (this is the type that speaks in character usually, and will take anything spoken by others as character and hold it to you) and says pretty much, "Heh, well as soon as the session is over that item goes POOF, so good going on that"
Like, I am being bullied it seems, or this person feels they're doing me a favor by reminding me of the obvious... Like, this person who initiated all of this seems to lack self awareness of the irony of his statement, and I can only figure he is being a jerk.
I in character respond with being confused, and he tells me out of character he is responding that way. So I confront him asking why he told me this, and he smirks and tells me, "seems like you weren't aware". So now I'm pretty mad and want to fire back, but I don't. After the game I asked if he was personally upset with anything and he said no. We didn't discuss the issue in detail, but I wanted to make sure it wouldn't continue and I hope it doesn't.
Other players after the game agreed with me, and felt uncomfortable. I was all for rping the dumb move and being chill, but the conflict if restricting my characters actions to let it slide, then personally to let his statement go. Am I justified to just hog tie this guy and throw all his items into the swamp? I don't want to ever deal with someone screwing up everyone's fun, and this dude was like putting me on the spot to play my character out to not tolerate that crap which is most likely not okay in pfs.
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No it's not PVP, but it may fall under another PFS rule, "Don't be a jerk". What did the GM do?
the gm trusts people and wants us to have fun. I can't speak for him, but I would hope he regrets letting this guy go ahead. Lesson learned, and I still think the gm is real awesome. I'm glad he trusted me enough to resolve it too. I'll try and think of how to resolve these things in the future, because it's now a more realistic possibility after this experience
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Did the other player give any reason as to why he was stealing it? If it were "just for fun", I probably would have tried to talk him out of it. At the very least, I would suggest to the stealing player that he do that in notes to the GM in the future, to avoid just this kind of issue.
(This only applies for items your character doesn't own or need: if it's your stuff or something that your character is depending on in the scenario, I probably wouldn't allow it at all.)
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It was just a piece of jewelry. No magic or practical use. No one spoke for it, so my character likes $$ and fancy stuff so he grabbed it. Someone suggested giving it to the female npc, and then without asking, this other player who didn't suggest that idea comes in. Paladin and others intolerant of such behavior flooding the party...
So if he was ruled that he succeeded in stealing it, then it was rule book opening time/arguments, followed by if he won said argument, to get to dealing with him.
In hindsight would let it all rock, because I trust that gm, but I'd tell everyone as a reminder that I'm here to role play, and my character rewards people stealing from him with front row tickets to see river dance, and I'm Lord of the dance.
Where does the line get crossed? Am I at fault for reacting in character? If he can stall my stuff, why not steal his? Can I demand him to give me his pants as punishment and make him feel the heat of what he's doing, because that's lesser than actually taking them?
Did he ask for the item?
Did he need the item?
Did you need the item?I feel like I don't know enough of the story to form an opinion. Could either of you.use it, and did one of you obviously benefit from it more?
As one of the people sitting awkwardly at that table, I can tell you that it was a nondescript ring that had not been checked for a magical aura. Mystery mood ring. Neither NEEDED the item, it was unknown if either would benefit from it.
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Did the other player give any reason as to why he was stealing it? If it were "just for fun", I probably would have tried to talk him out of it. At the very least, I would suggest to the stealing player that he do that in notes to the GM in the future, to avoid just this kind of issue.
(This only applies for items your character doesn't own or need: if it's your stuff or something that your character is depending on in the scenario, I probably wouldn't allow it at all.)
I can only speculate why he did it, and his failure resulted in him making a grey area statement where it seems that he was doing something spiteful or something. He does openly advertise himself in character to all as a thief, but simultaneously promotes his association with pfs.
We did plenty of goofy things in the session like I tired a characters laces together, and dropped his pants as a friendly gag because he kept wandering off during the game to read comics, and he hilariously used mage hand to pull my hat down over my face (which he walked over and actually pulled mine down in person. It was hilarious, but it was clear the stealing stuff was serious business, and that was unsettling.
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Then it just seems weird. Maybe he's got a social disorder. I kicked a guy from a table a while back who I later found out had mild asbergers syndrome, felt pretty bad afterwards. Not trying to make excuses for him, but it may be something like that. Or he may just be a d!@&!
Its a very odd situation, but I don't think its PVP either.
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We deal with social disorders, and it's never am excuse to be responsible for your actions. I treat everyone as an equal giving plenty if slack and forgiveness regardless if you struggle socially or not.
I want EVERYONE to have fun and return, but bass behavior has ramifications. Nature or nurture isn't a factor because I don't discriminate.
I refuse to have my fun hurt, and will play my character unconditionally, but I need to mention my feelings to the gm which I will.Hopefully if anything happens again that this gets nipped in the bud, and it's understood that that behavior is unwelcome.
If I could detect a friendly playful nature, then this wouldn't have been this way
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pfff... if he steals your stuff, report him to the Hellknights. Get a cleric to sort it out with a Zone of Truth...
Hellknight signifier: "Did you take the item in question from the plaintiff?"
Defendant: "ah... what was the question?"
I believe the punishment for thieft is 5 years indentured servitude, and a fine of 5 times the value of the items stolen - but I am not that good with the Law books in Cheliax, I would leave that to the authorities.
I believe the punishment for thieft is 5 years indentured servitude, and a fine of 5 times the value of the items stolen - but I am not that good with the Law books in Cheliax, I would leave that to the authorities.
BOOSH!!
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BOOSH!!
I believe the punishment for thieft is 5 years indentured servitude, and a fine of 5 times the value of the items stolen - but I am not that good with the Law books in Cheliax, I would leave that to the authorities.
wait, is Boosh! the name of a Demon Prince? Are you trying some strange summoning ritual?
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We deal with social disorders, and it's never am excuse to be responsible for your actions. I treat everyone as an equal giving plenty if slack and forgiveness regardless if you struggle socially or not.
I want EVERYONE to have fun and return, but bass behavior has ramifications. Nature or nurture isn't a factor because I don't discriminate.
I refuse to have my fun hurt, and will play my character unconditionally, but I need to mention my feelings to the gm which I will.Hopefully if anything happens again that this gets nipped in the bud, and it's understood that that behavior is unwelcome.
If I could detect a friendly playful nature, then this wouldn't have been this way
Perhaps he meant it to be friendly and it just didnt come off that way. Tone aside (since you cant read tone accurately from text), the comment you made when he said he was going to try to steal it could possibly have added to the awkwardness of the situation.
Im not saying the situation is your fault, because you didnt start it, but you seem awful annoyed by this even now, (presumably) days after the fact, over a small trinket that, as you said, didnt have a magical or practical use.
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We deal with social disorders, and it's never am excuse to be responsible for your actions. I treat everyone as an equal giving plenty if slack and forgiveness regardless if you struggle socially or not.
I want EVERYONE to have fun and return, but bass behavior has ramifications. Nature or nurture isn't a factor because I don't discriminate.
I refuse to have my fun hurt, and will play my character unconditionally, but I need to mention my feelings to the gm which I will.Hopefully if anything happens again that this gets nipped in the bud, and it's understood that that behavior is unwelcome.
If I could detect a friendly playful nature, then this wouldn't have been this way
Perhaps he meant it to be friendly and it just didnt come off that way. Tone aside (since you cant read tone accurately from text), the comment you made when he said he was going to try to steal it could possibly have added to the awkwardness of the situation.
Im not saying the situation is your fault, because you didnt start it, but you seem awful annoyed by this even now, (presumably) days after the fact, over a small trinket that, as you said, didnt have a magical or practical use.
Comment I made? As in, telling him good luck on beating my CMD, because I made an assumption he was making a steal maneuver? Well, tone applied, I said it in a very friendly way as to try and remove tension with the action, but he chose to preform an even less successful method instead, which confused people further. I kept the spirit of role playing alive, and then I got his message of how PFS rules work in relation to items found in game, which was extremely ironic...
Anyways, this happened last night, and even if it was years ago, that would be completely irrelevant to my initial question that I had regarding if his action was considered PvP or not. I am reading your comment as negative criticism on me, as if I should feel embarrassed to even mention it on here. Is it because you feel this is a petty matter? I feel you misunderstand the situation, and not appreciating things properly. If you could follow through on how I am supposed to read your comment appropriately, then I would appreciate that very much, especially with how I just explained how I'm interpreting it. I don't really find what you wrote useful for this thread other than just pointing out what I already admitted in regards to knowing that his behavior and such is ambiguous.
So, this is absolutely NOT about what the item in question was, but rather the situation that was created. Being honest with role playing I feel most people would be initiating hostile behavior when they steal items from another player, and I can tell you absolutely this guy wasn't joking at all, but rather what is questionable is if he was being spiteful/jerkish with his actions, or just doing what he was doing recklessly. You should tread very lightly I would figure when doing such actions, and if you feel like you will be acting in this manor intentionally, perhaps you need to resolve those issues in a better way, or not play PFS.
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That is the comment I meant, yes. In text it seems fine, and by your description it sounds like everything should have been fine, but who knows how the other guy interpretted it. You think he was being jerky, but perhaps that was not his intention. And with your response, perhaps he thought you were, which only added to the awkwardness.
I did not mean for the first comment to sound like negative criticism towards you, so I apologize for that, and yes, the question was because I felt this was a fairly petty thing for someone to become so concerned about. If you are concerned with the situation as a whole, though, and not the attempt at in-game thievery, then that is a different situation entirely.
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BOOSH!!
I believe the punishment for thieft is 5 years indentured servitude, and a fine of 5 times the value of the items stolen - but I am not that good with the Law books in Cheliax, I would leave that to the authorities.wait, is Boosh! the name of a Demon Prince? Are you trying some strange summoning ritual?
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BOOSH!!BOOSH!!
I believe the punishment for thieft is 5 years indentured servitude, and a fine of 5 times the value of the items stolen - but I am not that good with the Law books in Cheliax, I would leave that to the authorities.wait, is Boosh! the name of a Demon Prince? Are you trying some strange summoning ritual?
ah... this must wait till I get home. Youtube is blocked at work...
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That is the comment I meant, yes. In text it seems fine, and by your description it sounds like everything should have been fine, but who knows how the other guy interpretted it. You think he was being jerky, but perhaps that was not his intention. And with your response, perhaps he thought you were, which only added to the awkwardness.
I did not mean for the first comment to sound like negative criticism towards you, so I apologize for that, and yes, the question was because I felt this was a fairly petty thing for someone to become so concerned about. If you are concerned with the situation as a whole, though, and not the attempt at in-game thievery, then that is a different situation entirely.
I'm glad you cleared that up.
I will always be annoyed when I feel someone is being a jerk/acting carelessly, especially in a situation like this. I want our group to thrive, and I don't want anyone (even possible jerk) to stop showing up to events, because that would make things terrible overall in my opinion. Everyone that shows up has a life, and they are choosing to take their time to sit with others for a collaborative game, and I would hope to have fun. To be inconsiderate of others is absolutely being a jerk, and the PvP rule seems to be especially made to prevent such issues from happening.
As stated before, when he made the last ironic statement to me, that's when we determined there was no humorous element to his actions, and it was either him being a jerk, or him being careless and inconsiderate. To point out the irony explicitly, he made it a big deal to steal this item he would later lecture me about the rules in regards to how it vanishes at the end of the session, while not apparently being aware of the conflict of possible PvP he set up for the group, which is further ironic with his lecturing of how things work.
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And for clarification. I am all down for playing the game and role playing. I don't take it personally when someone rolls a character that is a jerk in the game, because I separate actions in a fantasy game, from reality. Obviously, there are people that will manipulate the game to be a jerk out of spite, and immature people like that I will just not play with.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I don't even look and roll perception, and his 27 means nothing because it can't happen...
Outside of combat, the relavant rule is (from the SoH skill description):
If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.
So, your CMB is irrelevant, and he got the object. Depending on what you rolled as perception, you may or may not have noticed. If you did not notice, it means he created a successful distraction and slipped it out of your hand.
So, yes, this was you cheating.
Um. I'm sorry was that your question?
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That was me cheating? I don't understand how I cheated when it was the GM giving the ruling. I dropped my dice, spoke out my bonus, and he was told he failed by the GM. Beyond my dice roll and it adding with my bonus, I had absolutely no other involvement in that decision.
So we established the item is in my hand, being held onto, while visibly being looked at by myself and others because it is one of the centers of attention. So, is it even worth me making a perception roll under these circumstances especially since there is no 1 equals failure on a skill check? I would figure the favorable conditions are so great that it's not really going to be a situation of "Oh, of course I am not going to notice the guy putting his hands inside my hands and prying this item from them with graceful precision while we all look at said item in my hands and discuss it."
I actually believe this would be more suited for Disarm, because upon reviewing steal, you can't take items held by the creature. I've never heard of someone using sleight of hand to take an item held out of someones hands, but I don't rule it out because of what I'm clearly reading right here not stipulating otherwise.
I'm flagging your comment for being insulting, and would appreciate it if you respected others on the forums.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I would argue a disarm check would be needed if it is in your hands.
Not really Finlanderboy. The slight of hand check isn't him just grabbing it out of your hands (and hoping you don't notice. ) It is a case of him creating distractions, and finessing it such that you release your grip without noticing.
The opposed check is to see if he notices. At DC 20, he succeeds at getting the object. This replaces the disarm, and is not dependant on the target's stats. It doesn't say anything in the skill description about not working on held objects.
Once again, this is not the steal combat manuever, which is grabbing it away in combat, this is the slight of hand, which involves more subtle redirection.
More like this guy (Okay, he is a pretty extreme example, but pathfinder is a cinematic system.)
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I would argue a disarm check would be needed if it is in your hands.
Not really Finlanderboy. The slight of hand check isn't him just grabbing it out of your hands (and hoping you don't notice. ) It is a case of him creating distractions, and finessing it such that you release your grip without noticing.
The opposed check is to see if he notices. At DC 20, he succeeds at getting the object. This replaces the disarm, and is not dependant on the target's stats. It doesn't say anything in the skill description about not working on held objects.
Once again, this is not the steal combat manuever, which is grabbing it away in combat, this is the slight of hand, which involves more subtle redirection.
More like this guy (Okay, he is a pretty extreme example, but pathfinder is a cinematic system.)
So instead of disarming people I can do a slieght of hands at dc 20 to take whatever they are holding?
If someone is holding something in their hands I would never allow a slieght of hands to grab it from them.
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RAW says "something" from a creature, and if you get a 20 then you get it.
So Full-Plate, objects held in a locked gauntlet, a spiked gauntlet, the food inside a creature, the creatures heart... You know, "something", but they might notice when you do it, but it needs to be outside of combat. You can do this as a move action with a -20 penalty too.
It is RAW, so unless you follow this in PFS, then I suppose you're cheating. I am going to make a crazy Sleight of Hand character and just double move action all the important items from the BBEG, regardless if it's bolted down to them or not. I'm crossing my fingers in hopes they don't make their perception check so we'll go into initiative, and I can take 2 more items, OR MORE!
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Well according to your reading if i was invisible I could slight of hand dc 20 to take a held object from a creature. Heck I could sleight of hands someones armor away. A ninja can strip someone naked.
*edit I would allow anyone to try if I were DM I would add massive penalties if they did something beyond realism.
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Well according to your reading if i was invisible I could slight of hand dc 20 to take a held object from a creature. Heck I could sleight of hands someones armor away. A ninja can strip someone naked.
If the creature doesn't go into combat, then you can keep going regardless of their resistance, and you don't even need to be invisible. Just take "something" from them. I wonder if "their life" is "something" that is legal to take, or "their innocence", OR "THEIR SOUL". This is awesome!
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If there's tension at the table between players, the GM should intervene and make a decision on what's to happen, and the players should accept the GM's call.
A good GM will let them make a short argument to hear their logic, but after the call is made, the game has to move on and it helps nobody if there's any issues after that. If a player continues to strongly disagree after the game and they can't sort it out, they shouldn't play with that GM again if that pattern keeps displaying itself. If it's a once-off, the player should let it go.
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Well according to your reading if i was invisible I could slight of hand dc 20 to take a held object from a creature. Heck I could sleight of hands someones armor away. A ninja can strip someone naked.If the creature doesn't go into combat, then you can keep going regardless of their resistance, and you don't even need to be invisible. Just take "something" from them. I wonder if "their life" is "something" that is legal to take, or "their innocence", OR "THEIR SOUL". This is awesome!
I slight of hanbds their brain. Since that is something and by raw I can take awaythign from them. Well since I have their brain they must be dead.
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I slight of hanbds their brain. Since that is something and by raw I can take awaythign from them. Well since I have their brain they must be dead.Well according to your reading if i was invisible I could slight of hand dc 20 to take a held object from a creature. Heck I could sleight of hands someones armor away. A ninja can strip someone naked.If the creature doesn't go into combat, then you can keep going regardless of their resistance, and you don't even need to be invisible. Just take "something" from them. I wonder if "their life" is "something" that is legal to take, or "their innocence", OR "THEIR SOUL". This is awesome!
I will swap out their ability scores. I dump Charisma usually, so that would be pretty sweet to go mess up a sorcerer or a paladin out of combat.
Are there rules on changing brains? Maybe I make a character with low INT WIS and CHA and upon finding a character with mental stats higher, I switch out the brains and gain that. Does that reflect the feats and skills I have learned, or is that innate with my characters body?
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DC 20 Lift a small object from a person
If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.
This bolded section is the main difference between using the Sleight of Hand skill and the Steal combat maneuver. Disarm isn't really related. The rules probably work because if you sleight of hand something and you're noticed, you'll probably initiate combat.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Now you two are just being silly. I assumed I didn't need to quote the whole rule book for you.
from the Table below the text
"20 Lift a small object from a person"
I suppose if it was an armored cod piece, then theoretically you could do that.
Likewise, if someone's brain is a small object, you could take that.
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So, if they haven't acted in initiative order yet, are THEY technically in combat? I could surprise round take their skeleton, and then if I start above them the next round take 2 move actions at -20 each to take their memories of their childhood, and their idea for a star wars fanfiction for myself.
EDIT: pieces of their vertebrae instead of entire skeleton. This needs to be of small size afterall.
EDIT 2: Okay, so we're "lifting" AKA prying out of someones hands a small object AKA "something", right?
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DC 20 Lift a small object from a person
If you try to take something from a creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check. The opponent makes a Perception check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You cannot use this skill to take an object from another creature during combat if the creature is aware of your presence.
This bolded section is the main difference between using the Sleight of Hand skill and the Steal combat maneuver. Disarm isn't really related. The rules probably work because if you sleight of hand something and you're noticed, you'll probably initiate combat.
Thats why I said if I was invisible. Ninja invisible stleath up to them +20 on the roll. Sleight of hands their sword/spell pouch/whatever. It would not be hard to auto a 20.
The reason I am being silly is the game does not take into acount ideas that are silly. So taking something right from someones hands while they are looking at it is a touch silly. SO I provided extreme examples to make my point I found the idea silly. It can be done, but it is not easy. I would apply a penalty in that situation as a DM.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It is RAW, so unless you follow this in PFS, then I suppose you're cheating. I am going to make a crazy Sleight of Hand character and just double move action all the important items from the BBEG, regardless if it's bolted down to them or not. I'm crossing my fingers in hopes they don't make their perception check so we'll go into initiative, and I can take 2 more items, OR MORE!
You apparently missed the part where I said, "Yes, if it is out of combat." (and the part where the skill said small object.)
By the way, there is already an archetype that does this. Gnome Prankster. If you want to do this, get a gnome Prankster / Manuever Master, Flurry of Manuevers using your Slieght of Hand skill to steal in combat, possibly with a whip (not quite sure if the whip prevents your from FoM.) You can steal everything except what they are holding in hand, in combat. (Out of combat, you can steal pretty much any small object you want.)
So, yeah. If it were useful, someone out there would have built it, and I don't see very many running around. (Most people would just skip straight to sundering it all anyway.)
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I think it's completely reasonable to take an item out of someones hands that is completely unaware of the creature doing it, but if I notice what's happening, I am not going to allow it. The example of some pick pocket is irrelevant to me because it's actively in my hands where I can easily pull away and grip onto it. I would also give exception to anyone that had an item in their hands and said they hold onto it tightly or something like that. Locked Gauntlet would just say no as well.
You walk up to a creature and just casually pry it out of their hands because you made a DC 20 regardless of anything else is a complete joke, and if a GM actually ruled that then it's time to consider continuing being at that table.
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You apparently missed the part where I said, "Yes, if it is out of combat." (and the part where the skill said small object.)
You apparently missed the part where I pointed out the caveat about initiative that was right in what you quoted me in. I hope that clears up that misunderstanding about you confusing me missing that part.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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The point of the article on the pick pocket, is that he actually does, literally exactly what you are talking about. That is, take things out of people's hands that they are holding on to. He does it by redirecting their attention to something else, and sliding it free. He does it on stage, in front of a large audience, while talking to the person he is stealing from. In other words, the target is aware of him, is aware he is a thief, and is aware he is trying to take something from them.
Getting a weapon out of a locked gauntlet would be harder, because you have to deal with the fact that the gauntlet is locked to the weapon. I would say that requires a slight of hand + disable device to unlock the gauntlet without them noticing, before you could slight of hand away the object. (and again, we are assuming that for some reason he has a knife or something similar in his gauntlet, because most weapons would not count as small objects.)
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Sleight of hand says absolutely nothing about distracting people, and that would absolutely be a bluff check to do. I really don't care to break down this mechanic, and again, in the future I hope you can be more respectful when posting to others.
Thank you to those that answers my actual question in regards to if this was a PvP issue, and I appreciate your insight. I'm confident that this won't be an ongoing issue, and will be most likely resolved in a very pleasant way. Beyond that I have considered other ways to deal with this matter quickly if it comes up again.