Illusions

[sciencerob]

I ran into an issue with a campaign and the full-effects of illusion. I find this typically happens when a GM and player don't see illusions in the same light.

So what exactly are illusions?
Do they have "substance"?
Do constructs see illusions?
Should a construct ever make a saving throw against an illusion?

Fleshing out the first question: Is it a mind altering effect which causes you to believe you see something?

Are the illusions actually there and the saving throw just decided whether or not you believe it is "real"?

Finally are there any sources beyond core that go more in-depth into this?

[Rapanuii]

There are sub schools to these schools that you should look into before diving into this. Patterns, figments etc

[Rapanuii]

Also illusions don't exist, thus they're illusions. Interpreting existence is an entirely different conversation, but because you see something doesn't mean that it's real (exists) understand?

[Shfish]

Only patterns and phantasms as a general description are described as mind effecting, thus only those would trigger a creatures immunity/resistance to those effects...and constructs are only immune to those types illusions...for a DM to say otherwise is no longer raw or rai as it's pretty darn clear by including patterns and phantasms in their immunity list they expect them to be affected by other illusions.

[sciencerob]

Yes, I gathered from looking around that figments would affect them.

I guess the deeper i look into illusions the more confusing things get. Lets say soldiers have barricaded a hallway and are waiting for reinforcements before moving on a group of PCs. The wizard casts silent image on the hallway to make it look empty. The soldiers saw it happen, heard the magical incantation(recognize it as magic). Do they need a save since they essentially have proof?

What if a wizard was in the group of soldiers and recognizes this as an illusion spell? Does he need a save?

What if a construct is there now instead? He is lurching toward the group and watches them vanish. He rushes towards the illusion of an empty hallway. He obviously(I think) gets a save. I think he would be able to fail it.

Can silent image do all of this?

Further more:

Lets say a wizard is concentrating on this spell. 2 of 5 soldiers enter this 20 ft area(lets say this is how far the wizard chooses it to extend given a high enough level). The 3 soldiers watch the 2 enter the area. What happens? Do the 2 soldiers vanish? Does the mere concentration of the wizard allow him to make changes on other characters turns if he "would have seen them entering and changed it"?

[Sporge]

Well unless the fighter have spell craft IE can tell it was illusion cast it could have been teleporting just as easily or invisibility, or many other things.

I would give the proof bonus to a wizard identifying such a thing, but I assume this has table variation.

As for the watching soldiers vanish this is as much about where you chose to put the illusion. If the spell lets you change it you might need the readied action to do it so intricately at least.

The construct I think would have to save as long as it isn't mind affecting.

Illusions do have many problems and honestly I use them mostly to just avoid being found. Invisibility, I have seen a silent image used in a desert to make the party look like a large rock to a roc, and that works perfectly well, no reason for the roc to investigate one rock formation of many in the area.

Illusion always seems more useful defensively or to give a brief moment of surprise, and largely needs to be used more creatively than some spells.

[Thymus Vulgaris]

The hallway thing seems to be encroaching on invisibility a lot. I'm not sure I'd allow for such a use of silent image.

[ryric]

I'm pretty sure you can't use image type spells to make creatures or objects disappear - you can create fake objects for them to hide inside or behind, but you can't just make an illusion of empty space where they were.

As far as the wizard IDing the spell, there was just a large thread arguing about this very issue. I think the majority opinion was that IDing the spell is proof, but I was in the minority opinion that it is not.

My opinion there is that IDing the spell lets you know that there is an illusion present, but it doesn't tell you what effect the catser actually created.

[Hendelbolaf]

Silent Image (and that family of spells) is a Figment so it "cannot make something seem to be something else."

So, the wizard cannot make a full hallway look empty with a Figment spell. He can make the hallway appear to have a brick wall across it or if there was an alcove, he could make it appear to be a seamless wall with the rest of the wall, etc.

To make something seem like something else you would need a Glamer spell like Veil.

Also, the discussion in the other thread failed to recognize that "because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can." That means that not all illusions are "unreal" so we need to forget what it may mean in our terminology and look at it as a game mechanic.

[Keep Calm and Carrion]

sciencerob wrote:

Lets say soldiers have barricaded a hallway and are waiting for reinforcements before moving on a group of PCs. The wizard casts silent image on the hallway to make it look empty.

The wizard cannot. Silent Image creates a “visual illusion of an object, creature, or force”. Generally speaking, figments such as Silent Image cannot create the illusion of absence; that is the territory of glamers such as Vanish, which can change the appearance of objects, forces and locations.

Silent Image could create the illusion of a wall covering the hallway or a cloud obscuring its contents, a fire filling the entrance or a hippopotamus blocking it.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

If you really want to know and understand illusion you REALLY REALLY need to READ and UNDERSTAND Rules of the Game: All About Illusions. Scroll down to where it says 3.5 links and there are 4 different documents. Read through it several times, and if your playing an illusionist or a player in your game is have the player or your gm read it several times as well.

I know it is 3.5 but there is no reason to believe that the affects are any different in PF. You will have a much better understanding of what Illusion can and can't do.

If this is for PFS, be very careful. I have an illusionist in PFS and I will tell you MOST gm's don't understand how illusions work, and you will find yourself getting screwed. Mostly NPC's getting saves when they should not, but there are a lot of areas where illusions are misunderstood. When you have a GM who does understand how illusions work though, its arguably one of the more powerful schools out, and is certainly a blast and takes a TON of creativity to play with.

[Hendelbolaf]

I still reference those 4 articles for Pathfinder as you are correct, the same principles apply. Before I run an illusionist or illusion focused character, I sit down with the DM and go over them to make sure we are all on the same page. Great reference!

[Dane Wright 70]

Hey Under. The link you posted seems to be broken. You wouldn't know of its existence anywhere else would you?

[Vrecknidj]

Check the PRD:

Illusion:

Illusion
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.

Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the figment produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like (or copy another sense exactly unless you have experienced it).

Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.

A figment's AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier.

Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.

Pattern: Like a figment, a pattern spell creates an image that others can see, but a pattern also affects the minds of those who see it or are caught in it. All patterns are mind-affecting spells.

Phantasm: A phantasm spell creates a mental image that usually only the caster and the subject (or subjects) of the spell can perceive. This impression is totally in the minds of the subjects. It is a personalized mental impression, all in their heads and not a fake picture or something that they actually see. Third parties viewing or studying the scene don't notice the phantasm. All phantasms are mind-affecting spells.

Shadow: A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

[Ravingdork]

Ultimate Intrigue has clarified a great deal of illusions for us as well. It's the biggest guide we have for illusions since the Rules of the Game articles linked above.

Ultimate Intrigue, Spells of Intrigue, Illusions:

Illusions are a staple of fantasy, and there are two main things to consider when adjudicating them at all levels of play: first, the different subschools of illusion, and second, disbelief and interaction. Once you are familiar with those, you will be set for handling illusions at all levels of play.

Subschools: The three most easily confused subschools of illusion are figment, glamer, and phantasm. Figment spells, such as silent image, create wholly new sensory effects anyone can sense, even a mindless creature. The similar glamer subschool includes spells that change the way creatures sense something that already exists, such as disguise self and silence. Phantasms, in contrast to the first two, are all in a creature’s mind, and thus don’t work on mindless creatures.

There are other subschools of illusion, such as patterns and shadow, but they tend to be easier to distinguish from each other, since patterns are typically light-based spells that impose conditions on enemies and shadow spells usually create shadows or quasi-real effects.

Disbelief and Interaction: All three of the subschools above tend to have saving throw lines that say “Will disbelief,” but they differ in how those saving throws apply.

Phantasms directly assail a creature’s mind, so the creature automatically and immediately receives a saving throw to disbelieve a phantasm. Figments and glamers, however, have the more difficult-to-adjudicate rule that creatures receive a saving throw to disbelieve only if they “interact” with the illusion.

But what does it mean to interact with an illusion? It can’t just mean looking at the illusion, as otherwise there would be no need to make the distinction, but drawing the line can be a bit tricky. Fortunately, the rules can help to define that difference. A creature that spends a move action to carefully study an illusion receives a Will saving throw to disbelieve that illusion, so that is a good benchmark from which to work.

Using that as a basis, interacting generally means spending a move action, standard action, or greater on a character’s part. For example, if there were a major image of an ogre, a character who tried to attack the ogre would receive a saving throw to disbelieve, as would a character who spent 1 minute attempting a Diplomacy check on the ogre. A character who just traded witty banter with the ogre as a free action would not, nor would a character who simply cast spells on herself or her allies and never directly confronted the illusory ogre. For a glamer, interacting generally works the same as for a figment, except that the interaction must be limited to something the glamer affects. For instance, grabbing a creature’s ear would be an interaction for a human using disguise self to appear as an elf, but not for someone using a glamer to change his hair color. Similarly, visually studying someone would not grant a save against a glamer that purely changed her voice.

The book also includes clarifications and suggestions on handling divinations, enchantments, and many other types of troublesome spells.