Ki Arrow and Sap Master combined, would this work?

[strayshift]

I have a Rogue/Wizard character who is aiming to become an Arcane Trickster, and whilst planning the character I looked at the Sap Adept/Master feats and thought ‘What if I could get a spell that required an attack roll (to qualify for sneak attack) but did non-lethal bludgeoning damage (to qualify for Sap Adept/Master)?”

Well after looking and rejecting a lot of force spells (and sadly the Merciful Spell meta-magic) it turns out that there is such a spell, Ki Arrow.

The theory goes thus:
Ki Arrow allows you to do your unarmed strike damage with a thrown arrow, which for most is d3+str non lethal bludgeoning.
Sap Adept/Master requires you to sneak attack with a non-lethal/bludgeoning weapon.

So if I was an Arcane Trickster I would have the option of using Sap Adept/Master with a ranged attack from invisible/hidden thus minimising the lessened sneak attack damage dice, the normal Arcane Trickster has a maximum of 7d6, this would become 14d6 non-lethal. The Trickster could of course still do the ‘normal’ sneak/ray attacks as well.

It also has relevance for the standard rogue too, as a couple of wands (Vanish and Ki Arrow) or the Minor Magic Rogue Trick and the Sap Adept/Master feats means that they too could throw arrows for their non-lethal damage plus their sneak attack doubled (massive amounts!).

So my question is this?

Would this work?

[Cap. Darling]

strayshift wrote:

I have a Rogue/Wizard character who is aiming to become an Arcane Trickster, and whilst planning the character I looked at the Sap Adept/Master feats and thought ‘What if I could get a spell that required an attack roll (to qualify for sneak attack) but did non-lethal bludgeoning damage (to qualify for Sap Adept/Master)?”

Well after looking and rejecting a lot of force spells (and sadly the Merciful Spell meta-magic) it turns out that there is such a spell, Ki Arrow.

The theory goes thus:
Ki Arrow allows you to do your unarmed strike damage with a thrown arrow, which for most is d3+str non lethal bludgeoning.
Sap Adept/Master requires you to sneak attack with a non-lethal/bludgeoning weapon.

So if I was an Arcane Trickster I would have the option of using Sap Adept/Master with a ranged attack from invisible/hidden thus minimising the lessened sneak attack damage dice, the normal Arcane Trickster has a maximum of 7d6, this would become 14d6 non-lethal. The Trickster could of course still do the ‘normal’ sneak/ray attacks as well.

It also has relevance for the standard rogue too, as a couple of wands (Vanish and Ki Arrow) or the Minor Magic Rogue Trick and the Sap Adept/Master feats means that they too could throw arrows for their non-lethal damage plus their sneak attack doubled (massive amounts!).

So my question is this?

Would this work?

Clever:)

[LoneKnave]

I think another good method is Reach metamagic+frostbite.

[strayshift]

Frostbite's not bludgeoning though so the Sap Adept/Master doesn't apply.

Bolas if you want to spend a feat is an alternative.

[YogoZuno]

Not to mention that Sap Master says 'Whenever you use a bludgeoning Weapon to...' - Frostbite also isn't a weapon, it's a spell.

Also, for the Sap Master trick to work, you have to be hitting a flat-footed opponent. Attacking from invisible/hidden denies the dex bonus, but does not actually make the target flat footed, afaik.

[strayshift]

Unless you are initiating the combat yes?

And this possibly brings us to a wider argument about stealth.

[YogoZuno]

There are a few other ways to make an opponent flat-footed (for instance, making them helpless), but going first in combat is the simplest. None of them really rely on Stealth/hidden/invisible, although it may make going first simpler.