Polymorph Sub School

[Evan Riggs]

ok rules query

Core Rulebook: Chapter 9 - Pages 211- 212
Paragraph - 3
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

and

Paragraph - 8
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, f irst adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

My question is, will the 8th paragraph affect a large creature say, a large eidolon and its hit by Reduce person owned by its master, does it only suffer the spell modifiers or does it also suffer the loss of large?

[Starglim]

Evan Riggs wrote:

My question is, will the 8th paragraph affect a large creature say, a large eidolon and its hit by Reduce person owned by its master, does it only suffer the spell modifiers or does it also suffer the loss of large?

It's reduced to Medium size. Its size modifiers change to those of a Medium creature, but some of those are already called out in the spell description: attack rolls and AC increase by 1, CMB and CMD reduce by 1, Stealth increases by 4 compared to Large. Its reach changes to that of a Medium creature of its body form, subject to any evolutions as they apply to Medium size. Its ability scores change as listed in the table on page 212, then apply the specific effects of reduce person as well (+2 size bonus to DEX, -2 size penalty to STR).

[Evan Riggs]

Starglim wrote:

Its ability scores change as listed in the table on page 212, then apply the specific effects of reduce person as well (+2 size bonus to DEX, -2 size penalty to STR).

Thank you very much this is what i suspected but wanted PFS input for "proof of purchase" so to speak.

[Starglim]

Evan Riggs wrote:

Starglim wrote:

Its ability scores change as listed in the table on page 212, then apply the specific effects of reduce person as well (+2 size bonus to DEX, -2 size penalty to STR).

Thank you very much this is what i suspected but wanted PFS input for "proof of purchase" so to speak.

Hmm. I'm a PFS 2-star GM. Don't know if that proves anything.

[Rikkan]

Starglim is wrong. Reduce person is not a polymorph spell. So you just do what the reduce person spell says and you can ignore the table on page 212.

- Edit: For example:
Your large eidolon is the target of a reduce person spell. A reduce person spell is not a polymorph spell.
In this case your eidolon would gain +2 dex, -2 strength penalty, and all other effects you'd gain from changing size, like : its weapons would do less damage (decrease one die step), would lose some of its reach, gains bonus on hide, gains bonus on fly etc.

Your large eidolon is the target of an alter self spell to turn into a medium humanoid. Alter self is a polymorph spell, so you'd apply the table first. -4 strength, +2 dex, -2 con and all other effects that you get from changing size. You'd then gain a +2 strength bonus from the Alter Self spell, which it grants if you turn into a medium humanoid.

Keep in mind that as always with polymorph spells you'd gain and lose some features that depend on form.

[LazarX]

Rikkan wrote:

Starglim is wrong. Reduce person is not a polymorph spell. So you just do what the reduce person spell says and you can ignore the table on page 212.

You would still lose the size modifiers it has by being large. in addition to applying the modifiers caused by the spell. Apply the change from large to medium and then apply the changes from the spell.

[Rikkan]

LazarX wrote:

Rikkan wrote:

Starglim is wrong. Reduce person is not a polymorph spell. So you just do what the reduce person spell says and you can ignore the table on page 212.

You would still lose the size modifiers it has by being large. in addition to applying the modifiers caused by the spell. Apply the change from large to medium and then apply the changes from the spell.

No, you would not lose any modifiers it has by being large. You'd only lose what reduce person says you lose.

[Hendelbolaf]

Not that familiar with Summoners, but would Reduce Person even affect an Eidolon? I thought they were Outsiders and not Humanoids.

[Taenia]

Part of the Summoner class allows them to target Eidolons with such spells,

"Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells."

[Hendelbolaf]

Gottcha! Just like familiars and such.

[Vanykrye]

Rikkan wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Rikkan wrote:

Starglim is wrong. Reduce person is not a polymorph spell. So you just do what the reduce person spell says and you can ignore the table on page 212.

You would still lose the size modifiers it has by being large. in addition to applying the modifiers caused by the spell. Apply the change from large to medium and then apply the changes from the spell.

No, you would not lose any modifiers it has by being large. You'd only lose what reduce person says you lose.

I believe Rikkan is correct. Reduce person, while being transmutation, is not a polymorph so it doesn't use the polymorph subschool rules. Now, if you're looking at something like beast shape x then those rules would apply.

[Taenia]

One of the funny rules in both Pathfinder and its parent game is that size bonuses are inconsistent depending on source. Compare Righteous Might and enlarge person to giant form or beast shape 2. All allow you to go from medium to large but the benefits you gain vary with the spell. When in doubt, do what the spell says and nothing more or less.

In this case the benefits/penalties are listed in the spell description and as has been stated the polymorph rules do not apply.