I've been looking into playing a White-Haired witch but from what i can see overall the Archetype somewhat hinders the overall class if you want to focus into it. As such I've been looking into simply adding White-Haired witch to other classes as a multiclass of 2 levels so i can get the base feature and the constrict ability.
One of the ideas I've been looking into but I wasn't sure about the viability of was making the character a Magus(Kensei) as I had been interested in that class/archetype as well.
The general idea of the character is to use the hair to grapple enemies and keep them in place while I either cast from a safe distance from the target or melee them or simply grapple one and constrict every round (while the grapple stays of course) while attacking another.
I was looking at Kensei specifically as I will need to stay out of armor for the most part to still have use of the witch spells that I'll have access to as well as just capitalizing on the intelligence bonuses.
I also was interested in going bladebound with the Magus but i don't see a way i can quite do this as it seems if I went with this there would be 0 way for me to take witch as the familiar thing is right out the window and I don't quite see a way to get rid of the familiar. (if i could it would still allow it to get the blade to level 18 at least allowing it the +5 bonus though depriving it of life-drinker)
So any advice on the overall idea, rule limitations i'm not seeing, or ideas in general for this would be helpful.
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I have always seen this Archetype as interesting. limitations the hair attack is a natural attack. so if your swinging around a sword the hair attack is at -5 to attack. so you probably want to focus on getting natural attacks. 2 levels if ranger for two permanent claws, there are several ways a half orc can get a bite attack. tengu has many types of natural attacks too. if you are going to be mainly a witch as you AC will be low and Low Attack bonus it is best to use it as a ranged attack so they cant get close to you.
once you get to 4th level it threatens 10ft so you should probably invest in "combat reflexes" so you can attack of opp grapple things that move through your threaten squares. cast "enlarge person" on yourself which gives you a size bonus to grapple and doubles your reach
build would be High dex high Int
Ranger 2 (claws)
Witch 4 (White haired witch) (reach)
Monk x (master of many styles, Panther style, snake style) or (Flowing Monk and direct them around where you like)
Remember that before you get prehensile hair, you will apply your strength to your to hit when using the hair attack and only the intelligence modifier to its bonus damage.
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I am going to take a two level dip into White Haired Witch on my Tetori, primarily to unlock the constrict attack, that I will then use to take Final Embrace. The King Crab familiar for an extra +2 to grapple checks is gravy, although I will need to take extra traits to get Two World Magic to have create water on my spell list so the Familiar doesn't die on land if his bucket gets knocked over.
I have always seen this Archetype as interesting. limitations the hair attack is a natural attack. so if your swinging around a sword the hair attack is at -5 to attack. so you probably want to focus on getting natural attacks. 2 levels if ranger for two permanent claws, there are several ways a half orc can get a bite attack. tengu has many types of natural attacks too. if you are going to be mainly a witch as you AC will be low and Low Attack bonus it is best to use it as a ranged attack so they cant get close to you.
once you get to 4th level it threatens 10ft so you should probably invest in "combat reflexes" so you can attack of opp grapple things that move through your threaten squares. cast "enlarge person" on yourself which gives you a size bonus to grapple and doubles your reach
build would be High dex high Int
Ranger 2 (claws)
Witch 4 (White haired witch) (reach)
Monk x (master of many styles, Panther style, snake style) or (Flowing Monk and direct them around where you like)
I believe if the witch gains other natural attacks, the prehensile hair is a secondary attack and goes at -5. The prehensile hair IS a secondary attack but goes at full BAB only if the witch has no other natural attacks.
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Mixing White Haired Witch with Kensai is going to be a painfully bad idea.
Remember, the witch gives up ALL hexes for that hair attack so you will NEVER get prehensile hair so you will always be stuck using your Strength to hit and int to damage.
Also your plan to use the hair to constrict and hold the target is not a good idea. Constrict requires a swift action to use so no magus arcana or quickened spells or arcane pool, etc. since those require a swift action to use. ALSO only initiating the grapple is a free action, maintaining it is still a standard so you can never attack or cast spells while you are grappling a target.
Finally, if you do figure out the timing to juggle all these actions together you run into the weapon choice problem. Do you take a real weapon as your Kensai weapon (like a Sword or Axe) and suffer horrible penalties on your hair attack (-5 to hit and only half Int to damage) making the hair pretty useless in combat Or do you focus on the hair and pretty much give up on all your Kensai abilities (no canny defense, useless perfect strike since it's a 1d4 weapon crit only on a 20, no Iaijutsu Focus).
Edit: also you can't use your hair to keep a target at a distance, it only has a reach of 5 feet and Grapple checks automatically move the target adjacent to you anyway.
@Imbicatus Remember the King Crab is semi-amphibious, it can survive a minimum of 12 hours outside of water before it starts to risk death. Also, don't use a bucket, get a hollow metal ball with a screw cap filled with water, like a hamster ball.
I generally see White Haired Witches take 2 levels and then become a melee type like a Barbarian, Ranger or Monk. It doesn't seem to produce much synergy with caster types because of action economy. It strengthens natural attack builds and is viable as a level 20 class, though generally not as strong as vanilla Witch.
no its because it gets no bonuses to grapple and doesnt have the ability to swap int for its attacks.
Mixing White Haired Witch is going to be a painfully bad idea.
Remember, the witch gives up ALL hexes for that hair attack so you will NEVER get prehensile hair so you will always be stuck using your Strength to hit and int to damage.
Also your plan to use the hair to constrict and hold the target is not a good idea. Constrict requires a swift action to use so no magus arcana or quickened spells or arcane pool, etc. since those require a swift action to use. ALSO only initiating the grapple is a free action, maintaining it is still a standard so you can never attack or cast spells while you are grappling a target.
Finally, if you do figure out the timing to juggle all these actions together you run into the weapon choice problem. Do you take a real weapon as your Kensai weapon (like a Sword or Axe) and suffer horrible penalties on your hair attack (-5 to hit and only half Int to damage) making the hair pretty useless in combat Or do you focus on the hair and pretty much give up on all your Kensai abilities (no canny defense, useless perfect strike since it's a 1d4 weapon crit only on a 20, no Iaijutsu Focus).Edit: also you can't use your hair to keep a target at a distance, it only has a reach of 5 feet and Grapple checks automatically move the target adjacent to you anyway.
@Imbicatus Remember the King Crab is semi-amphibious, it can survive a minimum of 12 hours outside of water before it starts to risk death. Also, don't use a bucket, get a hollow metal ball with a screw cap filled with water, like a hamster ball.
Ok, I haven't bothered much with grappling so I wasn't aware the maintain was a standard action. Read that over a bit more now.
The main reason i was only putting 2 levels into witch was because of the loss of the hexes. And i assumed kensei unless you got weapon finesse you probably tertiary into strength which is why that wasn't as big of a concern.
The alternate option i was considering was not focusing as much in the hair but utilizing the reach to get attacks of opportunity and just release the grapple after the constrict damage is over. Otherwise sustaining the grapple and keep hitting/constricting them. This was just an idea if i wanted to reduce their ability to hit me back while the rest of the fight just going full Magus.
All and all i can save this idea for a natural attack character the main idea here was just to see if i could basically have witch as a multiclass dip for the hair option/utility and just focusing on the class as normal.
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Mixing White Haired Witch is going to be a painfully bad idea.
Remember, the witch gives up ALL hexes for that hair attack so you will NEVER get prehensile hair so you will always be stuck using your Strength to hit and int to damage.
Also your plan to use the hair to constrict and hold the target is not a good idea. Constrict requires a swift action to use so no magus arcana or quickened spells or arcane pool, etc. since those require a swift action to use. ALSO only initiating the grapple is a free action, maintaining it is still a standard so you can never attack or cast spells while you are grappling a target.
Finally, if you do figure out the timing to juggle all these actions together you run into the weapon choice problem. Do you take a real weapon as your Kensai weapon (like a Sword or Axe) and suffer horrible penalties on your hair attack (-5 to hit and only half Int to damage) making the hair pretty useless in combat Or do you focus on the hair and pretty much give up on all your Kensai abilities (no canny defense, useless perfect strike since it's a 1d4 weapon crit only on a 20, no Iaijutsu Focus).Edit: also you can't use your hair to keep a target at a distance, it only has a reach of 5 feet and Grapple checks automatically move the target adjacent to you anyway.
@Imbicatus Remember the King Crab is semi-amphibious, it can survive a minimum of 12 hours outside of water before it starts to risk death. Also, don't use a bucket, get a hollow metal ball with a screw cap filled with water, like a hamster ball.
Ok, I haven't bothered much with grappling so I wasn't aware the maintain was a standard action. Read that over a bit more now.
The main reason i was only putting 2 levels into witch was because of the loss of the hexes. And i assumed kensei unless you got weapon finesse you probably tertiary into strength which is why that wasn't as big of a concern.
The alternate option i was considering was not focusing as much in the...
Oh it's an absolutely perfect dip class for ranger or barbarian.
The hair + spells (pick the Strength or Wisdom Patron to really maximize it) on top of the normal natural attacks from those two classes makes for an awesome killing machine with some out of combat usage too.I've designed several builds based around dipping into this archetype including a Magus build that is one of the ALL-CAPS builds this forum is famous for.
Oh it's an absolutely perfect dip class for ranger or barbarian.
The hair + spells (pick the Strength or Wisdom Patron to really maximize it) on top of the normal natural attacks from those two classes makes for an awesome killing machine with some out of combat usage too.
I've designed several builds based around dipping into this archetype including a Magus build that is one of the ALL-CAPS builds this forum is famous for.
I'll have to try and find those builds at some point. I didn't quite see something like that in my searches, hence the post.
I'm somewhat of a newbie to pathfinder and even more so to the messageboards so not all that knowledgeable of the ALL-CAPS builds. So I'm still in my early phase of playing a new tabletop system of throwing things that look interesting to me together and seeing what works.
If your doing this for a home game yoi can fix the white haired witch pretty easily. Just allow it to do int as the stat for anything with the hair.
With tbat change it will be playable. The rogue tricks are usefull to play certain themes though its really all about the hair.
Myself I'd go with the strength patron and use a xombination of touch spells and the hair for reach and swlective grappling.
In regards the kensai I played one with 14 str 14 dex 17 int starring stats to lvl 13.
Oh it's an absolutely perfect dip class for ranger or barbarian.
The hair + spells (pick the Strength or Wisdom Patron to really maximize it) on top of the normal natural attacks from those two classes makes for an awesome killing machine with some out of combat usage too.
I've designed several builds based around dipping into this archetype including a Magus build that is one of the ALL-CAPS builds this forum is famous for.
So what would be a recommended setup for a natural attack barbarian or ranger?
I've tried looking around and I haven't quite found a simple build for this. Most seem to be doing fairly complex multiclassing into hexcrafter, fighter, and/or monk.
I'd rather try to keep the build as simple as possible and just keep it to a primary class and dip into witch for the white haired witch.
From what i can see Ranger would probably be my best option with Changling or any other race with a claw option so i can have 3 natural attacks for the purpose of picking up multiattack. Otherwise i'm not 100% on how to do anything further with this (outside of getting a race with a bite weapon and getting aspect of the beast for 4 natural attacks).
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Ranger is my preferred base class for this kind of build Since it opens up decent spellcasting options but the build is actually pretty easy.
To start take 2 levels of white haired witch to get the hair, free grapple and constrict powers. Then take 2 levels of Ranger with the natural weapons combat style for the two free claw attacks.
It is recommended that you play as a half orc so you can get the free bite attack as well.
That's it, you know have 4 natural atacks at 4th level, some decent arcane and divine spellcasting with early access to the final embrace chain. This gives you grab and constrict on all your attacks and lets you put out an absolutely insane amount of damage each round.
By 10th level you'll need to find the cash for a Helm of the Mammoth Lord for your 5th attack (Gore).
This will give you 5 attacks every round and each hit will do 3D4+str+power attack+X (3D6 for the Gore) on a successful Grapple check.
Ths is just the base of the build with lots of optimization and equipping open.
Ranger is my preferred base class for this kind of build Since it opens up decent spellcasting options but the build is actually pretty easy.
To start take 2 levels of white haired witch to get the hair, free grapple and constrict powers. Then take 2 levels of Ranger with the natural weapons combat style for the two free claw attacks.
It is recommended that you play as a half orc so you can get the free bite attack as well.That's it, you know have 4 natural attacks at 4th level, some decent arcane and divine spellcasting with early access to the final embrace chain. This gives you grab and constrict on all your attacks and lets you put out an absolutely insane amount of damage each round.
By 10th level you'll need to find the cash for a Helm of the Mammoth Lord for your 5th attack (Gore).This will give you 5 attacks every round and each hit will do 3D4+str+power attack+X (3D6 for the Gore) on a successful Grapple check.
Ths is just the base of the build with lots of optimization and equipping open.
A bit of a rules question. Would I need to free action let go after each hit/grapple/constrict or can I just effectively initiate a new grapple check each time?
I'm curious about this as I saw someone mention something similar once about letting go with the other limbs as it would be easier obviously as the hair lets me get away with not gaining the grapple condition while grab does (unless i take a -20 on the CMB check which don't think I could manage on at early levels). Or would I just keep letting go turn after turn (as it seems like I can only do a single attack anyways when i sustain the grapple).
As probably a dumb question but the Hair is dealing 1d4+int damage. Would it deal strength damage as well as other melee attacks or would it just be int as that's all it says it does?
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Yes it does require a free action to release the target but remember you only need 1 free action to do that and you only do it at the beginning of the next round before you need to make the grapple check to maintain.
The point of the build not to bother ever going past the grab stage. Hit with the hair take the free grapple and dump those penalties on them and move them adjacent to you (you pick which square too so move them to a square that gives you flank with a party member). Follow that up with a Claw/Claw/Bite for damage and if you have the embrace feats then each attack also gets a grapple check and constricts for more damage and then you end the turn with the target grappled. Your party dog piles it and beats it to death while you hold it and IF it's still alive after that then you start your turn with a free action release and repeat. Nothing should really be able to live through a round or 2 of this.
The hair will always do your Int bonus in damage but that's not important, the hair's job is to grab the target and move them where you want and hold them still, the Claws, Teeth and (later) Gore are there to bring the pain.
As for the hair, nope it will only ever use int to do the damage. I prefer to visualize it as the grasping hand, weak put long and fast, used for the fine work while the rest of the body is there for the heavy lifting.
At lower levels a Tengu will do better but if you don't mind waiting until level 13 for total insanity this will do:
The Beast of the Heavens
Aasimar White Haired Witch 2/ Invulnerable Rager 10/ Eldritch Knight 1
1 White Hair, Improved Unarmed Strike
2 Constricting Hair
3 Power Attack
4 Lesser Beast Totem
5 Final Embrace
6 Reckless Abandon
7 Angelic Blood
8 Animal Fury
9 Angelic Flesh
10 Beast Totem
11 Angel Wings
12 Greater Beast Totem
13 Metallic Wings, Multiattack
Yes it does require a free action to release the target but remember you only need 1 free action to do that and you only do it at the beginning of the next round before you need to make the grapple check to maintain.
The point of the build not to bother ever going past the grab stage. Hit with the hair take the free grapple and dump those penalties on them and move them adjacent to you (you pick which square too so move them to a square that gives you flank with a party member). Follow that up with a Claw/Claw/Bite for damage and if you have the embrace feats then each attack also gets a grapple check and constricts for more damage and then you end the turn with the target grappled. Your party dog piles it and beats it to death while you hold it and IF it's still alive after that then you start your turn with a free action release and repeat. Nothing should really be able to live through a round or 2 of this.The hair will always do your Int bonus in damage but that's not important, the hair's job is to grab the target and move them where you want and hold them still, the Claws, Teeth and (later) Gore are there to bring the pain.
As for the hair, nope it will only ever use int to do the damage. I prefer to visualize it as the grasping hand, weak put long and fast, used for the fine work while the rest of the body is there for the heavy lifting.
I guess what i want to clarify is the exact rules details of the grab.
I understand the first part. Full round action to do all your attacks.
Hair, grapple, bring next to you, constrict.
Now with the other feats it sounds like now you go ahead and Claw/Claw/Bite initiating a grab(grapple) constrict each time.
For the grab rule it states the following.
"The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself."
and constrict says the following:
"A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check "
Now my question is how a DM would react to this as you've initiated a grapple with your hair but you don't have the grapple condition on yourself. So you can claw/claw/bite and attempt the grab/grapple/constrict with each.
There are two red flags that come up for me that i could see a DM having a problem with as it is not explicitly stated from what i can see at least.
1. Hair attack, hits.
2. Hair grapple succeeds.
3. Hair constrict damage occurs.
4. Claw attack, hits
5. Claw grapple succeeds
6. Constrict damage occurs.
Now this is where i find it complicated. Grappling for humanoid creatures generally requires 2 free hands to perform or i take a -4 penalty to the check and based on the grab rules it is assumed i do a grapple as normal or take a -20 to only grab with the arm initiating the grab and constrict can't occur unless I have a successful grab.
So by the time i reach the bite/claw #2 I either have to assume I'm allowed to let go after each grab or else those two will be grabbing with the limb i performed the attack with and take a -20 penalty.
Your example is to free action release and repeat the process on the next turn, but i guess my question is more directed at the grab's grapple check for the constrict damage in the main process on how it will work. I assume as a free action takes no time I could but I guess i need confirmation on this specifically so there isn't any confusion for me or the DM on how this plays out.
At lower levels a Tengu will do better but if you don't mind waiting until level 13 for total insanity this will do:
The Beast of the Heavens
Aasimar White Haired Witch 2/ Invulnerable Rager 10/ Eldritch Knight 1
1 White Hair, Improved Unarmed Strike
2 Constricting Hair
3 Power Attack
4 Lesser Beast Totem
5 Final Embrace
6 Reckless Abandon
7 Angelic Blood
8 Animal Fury
9 Angelic Flesh
10 Beast Totem
11 Angel Wings
12 Greater Beast Totem
13 Metallic Wings, Multiattack
Yeah I'm not a huge fan of Half-Orc so I was somewhat looking at Tengu, Kitsune, or even Dhampir (though their bite is more attached to the grapple like constrict is)
Constrict is a swift action, so you can only Constrict once per turn.
unless im missing something. How are you doing grapple/constrict release with something that is a swift action to do the grab and uses your intelligence. i mean i ssuppose you could make an intelligent grappler but i am assuming im missing something.
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Constrict from the white haired witch hair ability is a swift action, the constrict from the Final Embrace feat chain is a free action.
With that feat you get your swift action back to use to power your arcane accuracy to ensure all your attacks hit and overcome the secondary attack penalties from the prehensile hair.
Constrict from the white haired witch hair ability is a swift action, the constrict from the Final Embrace feat chain is a free action.
With that feat you get your swift action back to use to power your arcane accuracy to ensure all your attacks hit and overcome the secondary attack penalties from the prehensile hair.
Yeah, i assumed as no action was specified for Grab/constrict it was a free action.
though I was just curious if you're still letting go after each attack so all your limbs are free for each grapple attempt to avoid penalties.
Also I may be mistaken but i thought arcane accuracy was a Magus ability and this build was going to be primarily White Haired Witch/Ranger? Or do you mean something else?
Sorry for all the questions, as i stated before i'm still a little new so you're going to have to be really direct in what you're referencing as I'm still learning things.
White Haired Witch without the feat Final Embrace doesn't work very well. The main reason you are willing to go 2 levels in this class is to qualify for that feat, otherwise it's better to go Witch 1 and pick up the Prehensile Hair hex and the ability to pick up other hexes later with feats.
ranmyaku262, There are several related builds here.
WHW/ (Barbarian)(Ranger)(Eldritch Knight) is one method using Barbarian or Ranger to get more natural attacks.
WHW/ (Magus) is a different route that either gives you back hexes through the Hexcrafter archetype or uses the hair to keep opponents grappled while acting like a Magus and killing them with Spell Strike and Spell Combat.
They play very differently in practice and different people will like different variations on the themes.
I can imagine using this in a Dragon Disciple Gish somewhere, if not but for the hair.
I imagine
Aasimar (base, but has two talons instead of Daylight).
Witch (white hair)1/Oracle 1/Sorcerer 1/Fighter (Unbreakable)1/EK 3/DD10/EK3.
The most weirdest build ever, but hey if I can add my Cha to AC 3-4 times, wear heavy armor, and cast high end spells, then who cares if the end goal of every encounter is "find some sort of way to hit it with all of your natural attacks."
EK 3 to be treated as a lvl 4 fighter, so the human feat that makes "weapon Focus: claw" become "weapon Focus: Natural attacks" Maybe some Dragon Style in there to for kicks.
Could end up having
1 Hair (Witch)
2 Talons (Aasimar)
1 Bite (oracle)
1 Tail Blade (Human heritage whatever: ratfolk)
2 Wings (Aasimar)
Probably an Int of 10 or 11 just for the 1 spell and cantrips. Mostly just for the hair. Easy. Breezy. Cover Dragirl.
Pretty sure I could get another natural attack from somewhere, but I'm at a loss since I've been doing other things than looking at Pathfinder builds.
How are you trading Daylight for 2 TALON attacks? I have never seen that trade anywhere as it is totally unbalancing and way too good.
And how do you qualify for EK without Daylight?
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I can imagine using this in a Dragon Disciple Gish somewhere, if not but for the hair.
I imagine
Aasimar (base, but has two talons instead of Daylight).
Witch (white hair)1/Oracle 1/Sorcerer 1/Fighter (Unbreakable)1/EK 3/DD10/EK3.
The most weirdest build ever, but hey if I can add my Cha to AC 3-4 times, wear heavy armor, and cast high end spells, then who cares if the end goal of every encounter is "find some sort of way to hit it with all of your natural attacks."
EK 3 to be treated as a lvl 4 fighter, so the human feat that makes "weapon Focus: claw" become "weapon Focus: Natural attacks" Maybe some Dragon Style in there to for kicks.
Could end up having
1 Hair (Witch)
2 Talons (Aasimar)
1 Bite (oracle)
1 Tail Blade (Human heritage whatever: ratfolk)
2 Wings (Aasimar)Probably an Int of 10 or 11 just for the 1 spell and cantrips. Mostly just for the hair. Easy. Breezy. Cover Dragirl.
Pretty sure I could get another natural attack from somewhere, but I'm at a loss since I've been doing other things than looking at Pathfinder builds.
Entering EK with a BAB of 0 is pretty horrible. You'll have what, 9ish BAB by level 20? Not to mention you have no 3rd level arcane spells.
ranmyaku262, There are several related builds here.
WHW/ (Barbarian)(Ranger)(Eldritch Knight) is one method using Barbarian or Ranger to get more natural attacks.
WHW/ (Magus) is a different route that either gives you back hexes through the Hexcrafter archetype or uses the hair to keep opponents grappled while acting like a Magus and killing them with Spell Strike and Spell Combat.
They play very differently in practice and different people will like different variations on the themes.
Yeah, I've somewhat dropped the magus thing a bit more and decided to maybe follow a more simple route using ranger with a 2 level witch class dip for final embrace.
I've been basically just getting rules clarification at this point.
I've seen some mention of the hexcrafter one though in others and it has looked interesting though, but at this point I'm mostly looking at the build previously mentioned by Mathwei ap Niall using ranger. Otherwise i'm mostly avoiding going too heavy into multiclassing .
How are you trading Daylight for 2 TALON attacks? I have never seen that trade anywhere as it is totally unbalancing and way too good.
And how do you qualify for EK without Daylight?
lol oh wait, thats right, he needs daylight. lol Also, it is in the alternate racial ability chart for Aasimar. Technically they roll, but I never bother doing so or forcing any of my players to do so.
Alright, so human heritage: Ratfolk and the claws feat for them does it nicely. I would have remembered this problem somewhere in character creation if he was ever made.