While watching season 3 of Game of Thrones, I got to thinking that I want to experiment with a lower-magic sort of setting. Now before anyone starts recommending I just play the Game of Thrones RPG, or some other grittier game, I am not interested in learning or buying a new game. I enjoy making use of gaming materials I already own, so I thought about using appropriate material from d20 Modern, Urban Arcana, and d20 Past in a fantasy setting. Has anyone tried this before? What I am shooting for is a feeling much like Game of Thrones where magic was much more prevalent in the past, but for some reason has dwindled over hundreds or thousands of years to be the equivalent of what you would find in d20 Modern. Characters must start out more ordinary to make jumping into the life of an adventurer more harrowing than you would find in a typical D&D/Pathfinder game. The power level of magic will top out at 5th level spells. I will use Vitality and Wound Points, class defense bonuses, and armor as damage reduction. I will slim down the skill list to be similar to that of Pathfinder, and skills will be treated as they are in PF. There will be more to come as I do more thinking and possibly play-testing to see if this will be feasible and also fun to play.
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d20 Modern and Urban Arcana really focus on contemporary era games.... a lot of the material in the latter in particular is more about magic leather jackets than historical games, and generally speaking a lot of the rules are devoted to things like car chases and firearms and making adventures flavored more similarly to Buffy and such.
d20 Past I don't have, but may have some useful ideas to mine from--I remember looking at it and it's got some subsystems that might serve useful for you.
The other problem with d20 Modern is the class system was not very well designed, and it often took too many levels to reflect even a basic concept well, or have a character be moderately good at whatever their area of expertise was. (I'm saying this as a d20 Modern fan.... but as a fan, I'm aware of its flaws.)
I think you're better working with a modified Pathfinder, with appropriate suggestions from d20 Past, than d20 Modern. Simply disallow any full caster classes, and any other mystical classes that don't suit your game's flavor. Pathfinder's classes are just better designed.
You will either need to consider CRs higher than they really are in your world, and/or you may need to look at EvilLincoln's or similar leveling systems where characters get innate bonuses to Stats, AC, and saves as they level up, as CRs are calculated presuming all PCs are decked out in Big Six gear (which boosts attacks, damage, AC, and saves, as well as spellcasting and major stats).
Reconsider armor as DR and DR in general.... DR really is designed as an obstacle to be overcome eventually by magic, with a few exceptions. The problem is if you incorporate in DR as something you CONSTANTLY have to account for, it vastly slows down combat because it means you've got to deduct that amount from every... single... damage... roll.... ever. If you're fine with that, go with it, but I think you'd be better off with things that modify the Vitality and WOund Points system you're working with.... or incorporate in d20 Modern's (since you ARE looking at it anyway) Massive Damage Threshhold mechanic, and give appropriate bonuses to items and creatures to MAS instead of DR (d20 Modern did use DR as well)----but mind, the Massive Damage Threshhold mechanic makes things a lot more lethal (but it sounds like you kind of want that anyway).
Do consult d20 Modern for the Class Defense bonuses but also look at 3.x's Unearthed Arcana.... their systems for class AC bonuses are different and you may want to determine which is best for you.
Good luck!
You might want yo check out Iron Heroes as well.
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You might want to consider something like P6. You end up getting 3rd level spells and sticking to a grittier power level.
You might want yo check out Iron Heroes as well.
Iron Heroes is great for this. In my experience, it's better at simulating fantasy worlds then D&D/Pathfinder (except for simulating settings that are themselves built with D&D/Pathfinder in mind).
I usually just drop the arcanist and leave magic to plot devices and NPCs, like you'd see in Conan stories. But if you want some magic, there are a few options floating around.
Cheers!
Landon
I've been kicking around running a low-magic Skull and Shackles AP set in a a slightly PF-ized Caribbean. Here are the thoughts that I've had:
1) As the posters above suggest, Iron Heroes could be used. It is a pretty good system and does low/no magic well. I'd have to adjust for a more colonial era setting though (guns, etc.), so it may not be the best fit for my needs. For yours though, it could be great. It is also based around 3.5, IIRC, so the learning curve isn't much.
2) Use the Pathfinder P6 variant. It caps out level advancement at level 6 and then uses feats to expand the game in a broad rather than tall way. It also caps spells at third level, except for a few post-level 6 "epic" spells, such as animate dead, break enchantment, etc., which are treated as rituals.
3) A combination of P6 and Modern Magic, a third party supplement for d20 modern. Modern Magic introduces a few different systems for magic, including one for ritual magic similar to the epic rituals in E6, so they may blend together pretty well. I was thinking of magic basically a feat tree that can be followed, where a character could learn something like 2+ casting stat (mental stat of choice) plus one or two per character level rituals, which would be spells of a spell level capped out at character level/2. Basically, any character could learn rituals by expending a feat (or more, not sure yet, perhaps one feat per spell level. Rituals would take components, perhaps a focus of some sort, and one hour to cast, which would probably limit them to non-combat spells, and add to the low-magic feel. Post third-level spells would be treated as P6 does.
I'll probably go with option #3, though it will be more work. Classes will be skill and combat classes only, with non-magic variants for martial and skilled casters (so Fighter, Barb, Rogue, Cavalier, Bard (but no spells, or free ritual casting instead of spells), Alchemist (no third level discoveries), Inquisitor (rituals only), Ranger (spell-less variants), Maybe Investigator. Oh, and lots and lots of guns.
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Another thing I should have mentioned...
to be the equivalent of what you would find in d20 Modern.
d20 Modern isn't "low-magic" per se (although you basically can't be a spellcaster until 4th level based on its class system). d20 Modern is a catch all system for a wide variety of campaigns--a d20 Modern campaign can have absolutely zero magic, or it can be extremely high magic, with wizards, clerics, psions, and other things running around. Or no magic, but with robots and cyborgs and spaceships. And while Urban Arcana might offer some advice for high and low magic levels (I have it but I haven't read it recently), it doesn't really presume low magic any more than it presumes any other system--nor does it provide a lot of advice how to manage power levels that I can recall.
I would say not being able to cast spells until 4th character level, and spells capping out at 5th level of power to be pretty low on the magic meter. That's what I was going for. Also I wanted to play around with mixing up classes since they are generally lower in power to their D&D or Pathfinder counterparts (Thrasher vs. Barbarian, Soldier vs. Fighter, etc.) Several posters have missed or ignored that I said I will not be buying or playing a different setting or system, I am solely interested in mashing-up d20 Modern/Past/Urban Arcana with PF aspects and some stuff from Unearthed Arcana. I appreciate the feedback that has been given, though.
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The reason why that works the way it does though is because of a very clunky class system. Often because of it characters are largely ineffective--not "low power"--until they are higher level.
What you want would be more efficiently achieved in Pathfinder by banning classes, slowing level advancement, and adjusting crs as needed.
I would suggest using a P6 system. You could eliminate spellcasters and easily reach what you want to achieve without additional efforts.
I would suggest using a P6 system. You could eliminate spellcasters and easily reach what you want to achieve without additional efforts.
And to be clear, P6 is free, so while it would be new material, it would not cost anything.
RedRobe, obviously you can do as you like. You asked if anyone had tried it... I suspect the answer is "no," they haven't tried it because most people think it's not a very good idea. I've tried to articulate why... poorly, I suspect... and others have suggested ways to get what you want more easily.
If you just want people to back you up on your idea, go for it. I don't have to agree with you to support your desire to use whatever systems you like.
Here is my suggestion for you're idea, make the following changes.
Use Pathfinder CMB/CMD
Use Pathfinder feat advancement (1,3,5,7)- This one is important
Make sure players that want to be "magic users" take the Initial Feats Divine Heritage or Magical Heritage at character creation so they get to start with some magic. (You may even wish to "Gift" each player one feat from a narrow list, including these two)
I would suggest two new Feat's based off of the Pathfinder Major Magic Rogue talent. Re-flavor one Feat Arcane and one Divine. Prereq: Divine Heritage or Magical Heritage casting Stat 11.
Use Advanced Race guide to make some new races instead of just slapping standard D&D races into the modern world, or use things like Dhampir or Suli, to give the game a more modern feel then bugbears and orcs (personal preference)
Just some ideas
Edit: BTW I'm planning on running a similar game in the near future, but i have put a lot of work into it to make it work (All custom races, race specific feats, stuff like that).
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I have done exactly what you are suggesting in the past, and it works better than you would think, although a few house rules dealing with magic, finances and armor had to be cobbled together.
Because I was still going for a fairly high-fantasy feel, I had my players start at 4th level so that they could have their first advanced class level. If you want something grittier, starting them lower would definitely do that. For finances I reverse engineered the d20 modern system where 1 dollar worth of value was equivalent to one silver piece, but using pathfinder's equipment setup would probably be easier at this point. For AC I kept the defense rating of the classes, then took the piecemeal armor and armor as DR rules from unearthed arcana. My magic system was skill based, but that was as much because I wanted to play around with magic systems as any need to fix the rules. We played that campaign for a year and a half and I still occasionally get requests to go back to it.
So yeah, d20 modern is quite doable for what you want. It's just going to take some work.
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Several posters have missed or ignored that I said I will not be buying or playing a different setting or system
Iron Heroes. is NOT a new game or setting, it is a variant "Player's Handbook", that focuses on low magic d20 games.
It's at least a great source to mine ideas from...
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It also has enough additional rules and subsystems that I don't think it's out of line for people to consider it a separate system. Yes, technically it's a variant player's handbook...one that diverges heavily from said player's handbook, which Pathfinder also diverges from in it's own way.
OP, I have quite a bit of experience using stuff from Modern and Future with Pathfinder in sci fi settings, but honestly I don't think your setting idea requires it. Since you don't need the modern trappings for your setting, you could just pull some key abilities (talents, Feats) over to Pathfinder, restrict how magic works a little, and call it a day.
As for starting as "normal" people, just require level 1 (and maybe 2) to be Expert. That should make the characters pretty "normal", at least in the beginning.
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Looks like its time to resurrect my thread. I am in the initial stages of beginning a low-magic/lower power fantasy campaign using d20 Modern, Urban Arcana, and d20 Past. The setting will be akin to Game of Thrones, Shannara, and DragonLance. My players have been tasked with thinking up a character concept using only the Pathfinder Core book as a guide as the d20 Modern advanced classes allow for close approximations of most of the base PF classes. I have already hit a slight snag as one of the players wants to make a bard, but there aren't any close analogs in Modern. The closest I could come up with was to suggest he start with Charismatic, and choose talents that are similar to a bard's class abilities until he can take levels in Glamourist or Personality. The second player chose a monk style character, so I will direct him toward Strong/Fast and Martial Artist. More updates to come as we move forward.
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The players are deciding on what characters to build. One has said he wants to be a charismatic rogue with some magic ability. I suggested he start as Charismatic, work toward Sorcerer (d20 Past) and pick up a roguish advanced class down the line. I have made adjustments for using Pathfinder skills, so qualifying for Advanced classes shouldn't be too difficult. My question today is should I stick to the spells in d20 Modern and Urban Arcana, or open it up to the Pathfinder CRB? Thoughts?
Have you looked at Anachronistic Adventures from Rogue Genius Games?
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Have you looked at Anachronistic Adventures from Rogue Genius Games?
No. I am sticking strictly to a Pathfinderized version of d20 Modern, Urban Arcana, and d20 Past. I will use the books as-is, and incorporate feat progression, consolidated skills, CMB/CMD, etc.
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To allow my players to experience the d20 Modern rules prior to jumping into the linked adventures in the back of the a Urban Arcana book, I am building some of the Pathfinder iconics with Modern classes for them to play through a one-shot adventure. So far I have Amiri as a Tough 3/Thrasher 1, Lem as a Charismatic 3/Glamourist 1, Kyra as a Dedicated 3/Acolyte 1, and Valeros as a Strong 3/Soldier 1. I will also have Harsk as a Dedicated 3/Explorer 1 (from d20 Past), Merisiel as a Fast 3/Infiltrator 1, and Ezren as a Smart 3/Mage 1. I am looking for a 4th level Pathfinder or D&D 3.5 module to run for them. I have considered the Enigma Vaults from the Thornkeep book or possibly one of the 4th level modules from one of the APs I have: Jade Regent, Carrion Crown, Iron Gods, Wrath of the Righteous, Shackled City, or Savage Tide. I will post an update after we have completed the playtest adventure.
There is also the 3rd party conversion that was done for Pathfinder Modern that I can't remember the name of.
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We did a d20 Modern/Supers that was neat. Basically, you got 3 Power Points per level (x4 at 1st level), and it was basically a skill-based/points-based power system. Powers were based on Super Strength, Super Dexterity, Super Constitution, etc., plus powers like flight, energy projection, invisibility, plant control, super luck, etc.
I wonder if a d20 Grimdark game would benefit from that sub-system. I'm spitballing here, but maybe you could spend a feat to get 1 power point, and it might give you some magical ability. So if a PC wants magic at 1st level, they take that feat. If they want to work for it, they go Smart/Dedicate/Charismatic for a 3 levels, and then get magic for levels 4-13.
Or you can make some custom backgrounds that grant some magic.
I've also thought a LotR-type magic world would require the expenditure of an Action Point to cast a spell. So you would only get to do it 5 or 6 times per level. Depending on how fast you level up, you might cast a couple spells per session, and then be depleted for a couple sessions until you level up. Spells might view more like one-shot magic items. Some folks might hoard them, and others might burn through all their magic in one stressful hour.
There might be rituals or sacrifices or magical fruits you could use to re-gain action points, but those should be pretty costly and/or corrupting. A permanent magic item that would help you replenish action points would be VERY valuable.
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There is also the 3rd party conversion that was done for Pathfinder Modern that I can't remember the name of.
Would that be Modern Path?
Merisiel turned out to be a Fast 3 / Swashbuckler 1 as it fit more with her focus on swordplay. I acquired a Seelah mini this weekend and now I want to build her as well. However, the paladin analog is the Holy Knight prestige class in Urban Arcana. I thought about going with Strong 3 / Shadow Slayer 1 since I already have Kyra as an Acolyte. Thoughts? Suggestions?
There is also the 3rd party conversion that was done for Pathfinder Modern that I can't remember the name of.Would that be Modern Path?
Which has Herolab support via a free Community pack.
There is also the 3rd party conversion that was done for Pathfinder Modern that I can't remember the name of.Would that be Modern Path?
That would be it I believe.
I will be running the d20 Modernized Pathfinder iconics through a dungeon crawl soon, but I am unsure what would be an appropriate challenge. They are 4th level, and I am looking at two dungeon levels from Thornkeep: The Forgotten Laboratory (2nd-3rd level) or The Enigma Vaults (3rd-4th level). I know that Pathfinder's power level is higher than 3.5, and 3.5's is a bit higher than d20 Modern. I've read through The Enigma Vaults, and some other forum threads have mentioned it can be deadly. Does anyone know if The Forgotten Laboratory would be more appropriate?
I would suggest using the easier dungeon, and if it seems TOO easy, add some hit points or AC to the monsters, or add 1 or 2 minions, or something.
I think that's what I'll do. I like The Enigma Vaults, but its a little out there for what's going to amount to a hack 'n slash run-through. I'd rather save it for a real campaign. Thanks!
Dot!
My group may finally get to this adventure tomorrow, or at least character generation. I decided to just start with the Accursed Halls and allow them to make first level d20 Modern characters making necessary changes to starting occupations and skills suggested in d20 Past. Skills will be consolidated and I will use the skill descriptions from Pathfinder. I will use CMB and CMD, and will not use weapon sizes to encourage playing small races. The characters will start at the entrance to the dungeon to speed play as character creation will probably take a bit since we only have my copies of the books. I will post an update as this adventure progresses.
Cool!
Are you adding the Class Defense Bonus to CMD?
Cool!
Are you adding the Class Defense Bonus to CMD?
Would that be a good idea? AC isn't included normally.
I don't know. I'm kind of rusty. Probably not.
That would be it I believe.There is also the 3rd party conversion that was done for Pathfinder Modern that I can't remember the name of.Would that be Modern Path?
I would also check out Rogue Genius Games Anachronistic Adventures - from the product description:
Six new 20-level classes (Cogitator, Daredevil, Enforcer, Luminary, Sensitive, and Tough) representing iconic pulp heroes concepts!
More than a score of archetypes that let you fine-tune unique modern age characters!
Rules for modern firearms, heroes without armor, low-magic campaigns, and everything else you need to run anachronistic adventures or create your own anachronistic campaign!
As it is written by Owen KC Stephens (Star Wars Saga Edition), Starfinder, too many 3rd Party Pathfinder products to name...it is likely quite well designed...
Since none of the characters will be able to cast healing magic until 4th level at the earliest (3 levels of Dedicated before 1st level of Acolyte), I have considered going with either the Wounds and Vigor system from Ultimate Combat or Vitality and Wound points from Star Wars RCR and Unearthed Arcana (D&D 3.5). Any thoughts on either?
Using the RCR Wound system makes critical hits disproportionately deadly. You may like that, but if you have a spate of high rolls, it can tilt even a supposedly easy battle very quickly in the opposite direction.
Using the RCR Wound system makes critical hits disproportionately deadly. You may like that, but if you have a spate of high rolls, it can tilt even a supposedly easy battle very quickly in the opposite direction.
I have had some experience with that in Star Wars. I thought you still did double damage to wounds on a critical hit, when it was supposed to just be the weapon damage alone. Killed the character in one hit. Had to retcon it later, but that campaign didn't go anywhere. I used Vitality and Wounds in a d20 Modern version of the Age of Worms campaign set in modern times. It was still tough for 3 4th level characters to go through a 1st level D&D module. Granted, they were inexperienced players, but I figured they'd still be ok. They survived, but it was hairy.
Have you considered 5th Edition's methods of resting? You can take an hour to take a Short Rest and spend Hit Dice to heal. You roll one or more dice of the same type as your hit dice, and add your Constitution modifier to each.
During a Long Rest (6 to 8 hours), you regain half your hit dice.
Have you considered 5th Edition's methods of resting? You can take an hour to take a Short Rest and spend Hit Dice to heal. You roll one or more dice of the same type as your hit dice, and add your Constitution modifier to each.
During a Long Rest (6 to 8 hours), you regain half your hit dice.
I am familiar with that, but I don't play 5th or have any of the books. It sounds like a decent idea, though.
My group hasn't played (or doesn't remember playing) Crypt of the Everflame, so I have chosen to run it for my play test. I am creating 1st level base class versions of some of the 3.5 iconics using their D&D mini cards as a guide. I decided that I will let those who want to build their own 1st level character do so, but those who don't can play a pre-gen. I am going to skip the intro in town getting to know the character's mentors, and just start at the entrance to the Crypt by the lake after some quick set-up exposition. As we go through, if most of the party goes down, I will have them add a level and continue. This way I will hopefully see at what level a d20 Modern class can begin to survive a 1st level module.
To be fair, CMD does add all AC bonuses that aren't armor, shield, or natural armor.Would that be a good idea? AC isn't included normally.Cool!
Are you adding the Class Defense Bonus to CMD?
Wow, that's an eye-opener. I and both of my groups had no idea! We've been playing PF since 2010.
It is a pity that Grim Tales is out of print and hard to find nowadays. That book is perfect for applying d20 Modern to a fantasy setting.
It is a pity that Grim Tales is out of print and hard to find nowadays. That book is perfect for applying d20 Modern to a fantasy setting.
Looks like its on Amazon. Seems interesting from the description.
I made six pre-gens based on D&D iconics using stats provided on the RPG side of their D&D minis stat cards. Krusk the half-orc barbarian is a Tough Hero with the Primitive occupation. Jozan the human cleric is a Dedicated Hero with the Novitiate occupation. Mialee the elf wizard is a Smart Hero with the Hedge Wizard occupation. Lidda the halfling rogue is a Fast Hero with the Criminal occupation. Tordek the dwarf fighter is a Strong Hero with the Military occupation. Finally, Ialdabode the human psion is a Charismatic Hero with the Psychic occupation. For the spell casters, I chose the free feats provided by their occupations to allow some minor casting ability. The characters all have several more skills than their D&D counterparts, and some classes will be able to make certain rolls that their D&D counterparts couldn't, and vice-versa. This weekend will be the first play test. I will post some results sometime next week.
I have yet to run the play test based on negative feedback from my players and lack of time since we have more than one ongoing campaign. It looks like this is on the back burner for the time being. Again, if anyone has tried anything like this before, I would appreciate any observations and suggestions.