We just found some new gaming buddies from the Gamer Connection boards here and after meeting with them yesterday we decided on playing through Kingmaker. So I have decided to (once again) turn to the lovely people on the Advice forums for recommendations on exactly which character to build, and tips on how to build him.
First off the character creation guidelines:
20 point buy
Core races only (exceptions require extreme justification)
All Paizo and 3PP with GM approval
Two traits, one of which must be a Kingmaker campaign trait
Any alignment except CE
Roll starting wealth, Max HP at 1st
We have five players in total. One guy wants to play your standard tank/meat shield and isn’t much on RP. Another always perfers arcane and will probably a sorcerer of some kind. Our third player has played a variety of classes in our past campaigns (rogue, summoner, druid) but is usually partial to rogues. And finally one of our new players has stated that he is interested in playing a cleric, although of the damaging inflict line, instead of the healing curative line.
And then there’s me. I generally prefer to play face characters that can fill multiple roles and adapt to different situations. I tend to stay away from straight casters, but love both melee and ranged damage dealers. I tend to come up with the character concept first and then try to build it to mechanically match the image that I have in my head.
The first thing that caught my eye was the Aldori Swordlord, but after reading a bunch of threads on how to build them correctly, my head started to hurt. It seems like a very, very awesome concept, but mechanically they appear to be a nightmare. You have the fighter archetype, the PrC, Dex or Str, multiclass with monk, or straight fighter, etc., etc. Ow, my brain. If I could find a mechanically feasible swordlord build that could also act as the face of the party my problem would be solved. Does this exist?
Another idea I had was an archer with a flying mount (an attempt to recreate the 3.5 Skylord PrC). This was also met with huge variety of build options that had my head spinning. Ranger, Cavalier, fighter, druid. Leadership, animal companion, mount. The idea of becoming the leader of an elite task force of our nations military, leading a group of archers mounted on griffons or giant eagles or something really had me excited. But I have no idea which build would make the most sense mechanically, and, again, I would prefer some face skills. This build seems to be extremely feat-intensive as well.
Finally, I was interested in getting a crack at playing a Dawnflower Dervish bard. I saw many builds added in sound striker, but, unfortnunately they also used aasimar for most. Instead of running through the specifics here, I think a character that could dual wield and put out decent damage while buffing, supporting, facing, would be really really great, but seems hard to pull off. Maybe a ranger would be better here? Or even a straight up fighter?
I’ve also condered a few other things briefly: bomber alchemist, summoner, and some of the oracle mysteries seem very intriguing. Bottom line, I am completely open to your suggestions, but above all, my favorite builds make sense both mechanically and conceptually, and that is usually where I run into the most trouble. Which of these characters, or roles, would you suggest and how would you go about building them?
I have run some of this adventure path before my players went off course. I have advice with minor spoilers, so don't look if you want to be completely surprised by the mechanics of running a kingdom (very minor plot spoilers)
Great point, but if the guy playing the sorcerer becomes the king, this AP is going to hell in a hand basket. Cripes.
As an alternative to the Swordlord, you could ask your DM about the Swashbuckler from the Advanced Class Guide playtest.
The simplest (and possibly best) way to make a flying Archer would be a Ranger with the Sable Company Marine archetype. It's a Ranger who gives up one of his Favored Terrains for a Hippogriff Companion when he gets his animal companion. At fifth level, take Boon Companion and it will be able to carry you and a reasonable amount of gear as a Light Load.
The best all-round choice I can think of for a King would be the Lore Oracle. You'd be the most knowledgeable man in the realm, with all Knowledge skills as class skills, Charisma to Knowledge skills, the ability to think for a few rounds to gain +20 on any Int based check (which can still apply to Knowledge, as the Charisma replacement is optional) and enough skill points left over for face skills (between 4+Int base, Human bonus and an inherent Int bonus, use favored class bonuses beyond level 3 for Spells Known).
Until then, you're a full-progression spellcaster and a reasonably good (or at the very least resilient) combatant with Medium Armor plus Charisma to AC (instead of Dex). Your Cleric is going with the Inflict route, so having all healing spells automatically known and spontaneously available can be handy. The Noble Scion feat fits thematically and replaces Dexterity with Charisma for Initiative, though note that it has to be taken at level 1. And you have a nice ace-in-the-hole with the underrated Arcane Archivist. Or be a Half Elf with Paragon Surge, at the risk of the DM throwing a book at you.
Rangers are great in this campaign. Now if your GM lets you take a large flying mount, you could outright break the campaign. Lol
You will be quite useful
I just had a gander at the monstrous cohort table and it's pretty much my wet dream. Giant Eagle, Griffon, Pegasus, Wyvern, and Dragon! Wow, that is exactly what I am talking about.
The only problem is pretty much anyone can take it, so that doesn't help narrowing down on the build, other than the focus on archery. Maybe I could combine two of my concepts and do an archer bard with the monstrous cohort. I'll look into that a little further.
@BornofHate: Any specific ranger archetype or concept?
Paladins are great, but I'm not sure they can afford feats for both Archery and Mounted Combat.
Divine Hunter trades out good class features for poor ones, and locks you out of Oath of Vengeance.
Yes, yes. I feel like there is definitely something here. The monstrous cohort list sealed the deal for that route. All I need is a base class that synergizes with a decent Charisma score and won't be completely feat-starved.
I have the player's guide and have been constantly referencing it. I feel like I could either play the role of the king or a military figure of some sort. Luckily, I just got a text from the arcane player and he said he's been eyeballing the summoner, which I heartily recommended, so we may have dodged that bullet.
I feel like my biggest roadblock is feats. If I am playing a non-human, non-fighter then I will only have four feats at my disposal by 7th level. Three of those feats would already have to be Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, and Leadership, so that only leaves one feat left for buffing my archery abilities. Clearly that isn't going to work.
This still requires a good bit of research. But I feel like this has the makings of something very, very fun.
I can't shake the mental image of my character sitting at his throne, his huge glowing bow mounted on the wall behind him, his flying mount lounging lazily next to the throne, staring down any and all who approach him. I have to make this work.
You could always be a flying Lancer, and use a bow as backup.
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You need good outdoors skills (Survival, Knowledge: Nature+Geography, Perception), a bit more self reliance than usual and multiple options in a fight. The random encounter tables in each book vary quite a bit and they may not be able to reach the Trading Post after each session. The closest large city is Restov in Brevoy which I think is 2 weeks away on foot. If the group gets in trouble there is often no backup.
My group had a lawful evil cleric and the lack of spontaneous healing hurt the group in several encounters. Ranger or ranger hybrid work well. Casters of all stripes are OK, even ones that want to craft. The AP assumes downtime between books and players decide how fast they want to explore. Archetypes that pick up ranger abilities are useful all the way through book 5. There is time to retrain once the kingdom gets rolling. "Now that I spent most of my time in town, my wilderness training is slipping."
A straight out of the book fighter is remarkably effective. You never have to worry about running out of sword swings for the day.
Alchemist can work, if the GM lets you "live off the land" to get more reagents to make bombs and mutagen.
I have a summoner in a different game and they can be quite powerful. Once the eidolon is summoned it does not have a time limit. It does have to stay close to the caster but that is rarely a problem.
I have yet to see an oracle work well, but maybe that's my group.
You can't go wrong with rogues. Several archetypes are thematically appropriate.
IMHO, you never multiclass a monk (or primary caster). If you have a build in mind that can make up for delaying/barring access to higher level class features it might work. Late game encounters assume you have access to certain abilities and if those are missing there can be problems. It's a bigger deal with casters of course, but a monk who can't bypass DR will be crippled in several fights.
If you have access to the Advanced Class Guide Playtest, I'd use either the Slayer or Investigator.
Anything (mount, spell, archetype) that unlocks flight early is a life saver. Or at least a time saver if the whole group can do aerial surveys when exploring. That might have to wait until book 2.
I ran this when it first came out, but now there some options you should find out about. Is the GM using the Ultimate Campaign version of the one presented with the AP in book 2? Legendary Games "Ultimate Rulership" or Jon Brazer's "Book of the River Nations" are out there and either update or replace parts of kingdom building. That second one has character options like feats and spells that work off the kingdom rules in the AP.
If you look at the Player Guide, there are more bits of advice and a list of the kingdom jobs. There are not enough players to fill them all, but think about which one you're character might be either good at or at least interested in.
Wow, great advice wolaberry. Thank you. Maybe ranger is the way to go, to ease the burden of the heavy feat requirement. But since I am taking the monstrous cohort at 7, I don't really have the need for an animal companion. Maybe just a horse to hold me over until I hit 7.
I didn't ask the GM about the playtest classes, but I tend to stay away since nothing official has been developed for them. I will see about UC. Thanks.
@Deadmanwalking: Valid point. I guess when it comes right down to it, Mounted Archery isn't really necessary. I guess even Mounted Combat isn't vital, but it would definitely help.
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Wow, great advice wolaberry. Thank you. Maybe ranger is the way to go, to ease the burden of the heavy feat requirement. But since I am taking the monstrous cohort at 7, I don't really have the need for an animal companion. Maybe just a horse to hold me over until I hit 7.
I didn't ask the GM about the playtest classes, but I tend to stay away since nothing official has been developed for them. I will see about UC. Thanks.
As mentioned Hippogriff Companions are a thing. I'd go with that rather than a Cohort, honestly.
Or go with the Cohort idea and grab an Eagle Shaman Druid cohort. He or she will be able to Wild Shape into a Huge Bird at 6th level (so when you're 8th) for riding purposes and provide wilderness skills and support spellcasting as well.
EDIT:
@Deadmanwalking: Valid point. I guess when it comes right down to it, Mounted Archery isn't really necessary. I guess even Mounted Combat isn't vital, but it would definitely help.
Mounted Combat probably isn't needed or even that good if going with an actual Animal Companion, their AC gets really high really quick if you give them even light armor barding (nor is it needed with a Druid once you can afford Wild Dragonhide Plate for them).
If you want to be a charisma character who is an archer I suggest either a bard (this is easy all the Bard guides explain how to make a bard archer) or a battle oracle. I play a battle oracle in a homebrew game and I love it. It gives me lots of good spellcasting and by focusing on buffing/utility I get away with mediocre charisma to focus on maximum strength. So to build an archer just remember that 2 revelations will give you all martial weapons, heavy armor and 3 bonus feats. A ranger will be a good archer as will a zen archer monk, but they dump charisma.
The Oracle of Battle angle has definitely piqued my interest. I've read in other threads that an archer oracle doesn't work, but I don't really see why it wouldn't. I'm not sure if I would take Elf for the Longbow and Dex or Human for the skills and feat.
Has anyone here had luck doing a battle oracle archer? I'm going to mess around in HL and see what I can come up with.
@pennywit: The flying mount will definitely be for utility. I want to stay far away from anything hostile so I can fire with impunity, and from what I've been told Kingmaker has a lot of open spaces.
I am not ruling out the archer bard concept either, I think I've definitely narrowed it down to one of those two.
I would think Human is about the same as Elf, best is Half Elf. Humans get a spells known favored class bonus, very nice for an oracle, so Human/Half Human is very strong. As an Archer you want high dex, decent str so any race with both a dex bonus and a bonus feat/bow proficiency will be workable. Half Elf gets that with ancestral arms and access to Paragon Surge, a spell so good it gets banned a lot. A human will be a better switch hitter, but low light vision and immunity to sleep really help at low level and Paragon Surge insanity really help at high level.
Divine Hunter gets Precise Shot as a bonus feat. If you play a human paladin, that gets you Precise Shot, and you can take PB Shot at first level with your human bonus feat.I feel like my biggest roadblock is feats. If I am playing a non-human, non-fighter then I will only have four feats at my disposal by 7th level. Three of those feats would already have to be Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, and Leadership, so that only leaves one feat left for buffing my archery abilities. Clearly that isn't going to work.
That's the only good thing about the archetype. Everything else is worse than a regular Paladin, and it locks you out of Oath of Vengeance. Only take Divine Hunter if you don't plan to go past level 2.
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Honestly I recommend The Dervish Dawnflower. If your Cleric is going Inflict route he will not be buffing as much. You will actually qualify for King and have all the social skills needed.
Another route is a Half-elf Oracle with Paragon Surge Shenanigans and just be able to do just about anything.
If you go Flying Archer I recommend a Beastmaster Ranger, go small race and fly on a flying companion like a dire bat or a Giant Owl. Take good Favored Enemies. Currently I'm playing a mounted Halfling Charger ranger and Love it and I know if I was an Archer it would be just as fun. Only down side I have is the lower cha and lack of good social skills. But someone is going to need the survival skill.