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So I'm running Kingmaker+ aka with changes and I'm wondering if I'm getting the balance in difficulty right.
Party is 7 in size, BUT! Only 3-4 players are usually playing at any time. Non-present player's have their characters, out-of-commissioned.
<Possible spoilers>
So an example I have was for a party of 4 players, 1 paladin, 1 warpriest, 1 monk and an bomb alchemist face down a party of bandits, consisting of:
5 bandits 1/2 CR (as in the book)
1 Werewolf "bandit leader" 2 CR
1 Mercenary Healer 1/2 CR
1 Savage Mercenary 1/2 CR
1 Dire wolf "called by the werewolf" 3 CR
They faced the above party in place of 6 bandits as call for by the book.
Once combat starts, the monk starts whining about if I got the CR right and that the fight looks way more then the party can handle.
Eventually, the party was victorious with the Dire wolf going down last and the monk and alchemist on the ground.
So my question is, Is this encounter really too much? Am I way overboard on the CR? Is it ok to have a lv 2 party face a DR 10/Silver enemy?
Another example of a change I did was the spider lair. I upped the giant spiders to 4 giant spiders and 1 spider swarm, the terrain is full of webs that the spiders can move into, but PCs can't with out being trapped. Any fire effect burns the webs and exposes the hidden spiders.
The sorceress and alchemist pretty much burned everything to a crisp with bombs and burning hands. No challenge here.
Extra game information -
So changes from a normal game (Using PFS standard):
- variable pointbuy - depending on race options, up to 25 point buy, 15 lowest.
- Max hp level 1. 1/2 + 2 hp per level from lv 2
- 1K starting gold
- Characters start Kingmaker at lv 2
- Extra equipment (minor artifact - gives a lv 1 spell on charges)
- 1 campaign trait (chosen from any available trait, say trait becomes a campaign category trait.)
- 2 traits OR 1 feat
- Allows custom races and archetypes (with balancing and approval)
- Out-of-commission characters get 1/2 xp.
- Exp path is slow.
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If that was the only encounter for the day and the PC's weren't surrounded or ambushed I call that a balanced encounter. BUT the lycanthrope's DR is probably too much for level. 2's. Silver isnt always available and unless the DM provides an innovative way to include silver weapons mid-combat (like a set of silverware on a nearby kitchen table that perceptive characters can utilize) DR 10 is frustrating. Many characters will have a hard time dealing damage at all.
That's my only quip with this encounter.
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They are well rested and it was the only fight of the day. They were heading back to the trading post. They did not gain any physical reward for a RP encounter the night before, and I wanted to reward them in some way. Ideal was a bandit band with goods.
I factored that since I 1) did gave them 1000gp to start their character with and therefore they could have purchased an alchemical silver weapon. 2) Gave them a alchemical silver dagger in a previous loot and 3) They have a paladin that can by pass DR with smite, they should be ok.
I just wonder if I should up the challenge of future fights to match the party? Or stick to the book and potentially have them wiping the board and make light work of other encounters.
Edit: And they did have an alchemist with them, who could have bombed the werewolf to death.
According to Pathfinder this is a CR 4.
In Pathfinder you add +1 to the CR of the encounter for every baddy after the first. Here's my math:
1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 2
2(from above) + 2 = 3
3 (from above) + 3 = 4
I don't think you were out of line at all. This sounds like a great encounter. The only way PCs are having fun is if the threat of death is apparent.
I would also note that this shouldn't be the average challenge level. Be sure to throw some easy stuff at them too. And for Pete sakes, please be sure to throw more an one encounter at them per day. I think this was the single worst advice written in the AP. With this advice characters will nova on everything.
Sounds like you are having fun! Keep it up.
Btw, tell your monk that he shouldn't worry about what the CR of anything is. That's your job. Tell him you talked to a guy on the boards who threw three trolls at a level two group of three PCs who dropped their treasure chest full of bandit loot and ran like the dickens.
A great man once said "...there are alternatives to fighting." As he crawled out of the Millennium Falcon's septic tank.
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Seems like I got the bandits wrong they are only 1/3 CR not 1/2 CR.
Combining their xps, it totaled, 2,475, for a CR 6 encounter. Which they were able take on and defeat!
*Note, the Paladin and Cleric got pretty solid defenses of 20 and 18 AC respectively the Bandits cannot even hit them 90% of the time with their +2 attacks.
I wonder does me allowing up to 25 point buy + 1000 starting GP, made them a little too tough for their level.
Oh well, I guess I should try to peg encounters to give them a challange.
@BornofHate , oh I will be hitting them more then once a day if the situation makes sense.
Big question, I find it not a challenge at all, throwing low attack mobs like bandits on the party. The Bandits just can't hit them!
What should I do?
Traps? Entangle via tanglefoot bags? Use deadly Terrain? Throw Single high CR monsters at them instead?
Sure. Aid another works well too. You could effectively triple their chances .
Think like a bandit. They rarely fight fair
According to Pathfinder this is a CR 4.
In Pathfinder you add +1 to the CR of the encounter for every baddy after the first. Here's my math:
1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 2
2(from above) + 2 = 3
3 (from above) + 3 = 4
That's not how it works. If you have 2 CR 3 creatures, you add +2, not +1, for a total of CR 5.
However, a much easier method is to simply add up the XP values, and see what CR the total matches up to.
For this encounter, there's 7*200 + 600 + 800, for a total XP of 2800. That's slightly above the XP value for a CR 6 encounter (2400), making that the CR for the encounter as a whole.
Oh my bad. You are totally right.
Either way CR as a means of judging difficulty kinda gets thrown out the window when your WBL and Stats are different than the model.
But yeah you are totally right.
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@Philip, Thanks, I'm already referencing the 6 player mod. Its pretty helpful, like the 25 xp per person for each hex.
@ BornofHate,
It is a little hard to find a good balance for my players. Especially since I give them almost total freedom to make any kind of character they want. (With story and balancing restrictions)
Basically, they can make custom races and archetypes.
Thanks to these customizations, my players' characters can be anything from a 15 to 25 pointbuy depending on their race choices.
I got a 1/2 half-elf, 1/2 Dragon Sorceress in my party, getting the dragon from the ARG and a human who has Outsider Native (Aasimar) after he got given an experimental treatment.
There is a player playing a straight up Judge Dredd Paladin to the the above human outsider monk that is going to be a damage king once he hits lvl 3, thanks to a customized monk archetype and a modified Dervish Dance that works with spears.
Sigh... I wonder if I'm giving them too much freedom... :P
I factored that since I 1) did gave them 1000gp to start their character with and therefore they could have purchased an alchemical silver weapon. 2) Gave them a alchemical silver dagger in a previous loot and 3) They have a paladin that can by pass DR with smite, they should be ok.
Did you make sure the party had the potential to have silver weapons on hand, or did you make sure the party actually had silver weapons? There is a huge huge difference there, and there really isn't anything I can think of early on in Kingmaker that would give the PCs any reason to assume DR/silver is going to come up.
There's also a pretty significant difference between fighting something with 10 points of DR you can't bypass at level 2 vs. fighting it 8 or so, when you can power through with raw damage output. As is, from the sound of it maybe half the party could actually do damage there?
Also worth noting, the first book of Kingmaker is a bit of an outlier. Most APs really lob some softballs at the party early on. Pugwampis, stirges, goblins armed with improvised weapons, etc. Here, pretty early on, we have bandits attacking with bows from behind heavy fortifications. Regardless of their official CR, tactically speaking that can be really hard to deal with at low levels when you're first feeling your character and your party out, and if you're scaling things up with more of those for a big party, in the heat of the moment you're probably going to have them focus fire on a single character rather than spread it around. Something to keep in mind when you're making tweaks.
Sigh... I wonder if I'm giving them too much freedom... :P
Yep...but all that means is you just have to work harder for the whole
campaign, or start again... ;-p
Ok, so maybe it's not quite that bad, but it'll definitely be a LOT of
more work...
Agreed. I allowed 25 pt buy and I regret it. I have spent hours of unnecessary prep time adding additional baddies just to maintain a challenge for my group. Increasing WBL and other benefits to the PCs will only add more prep time for you over the course of a very long campaign.
Luckily, you have the community here to help :)
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Sigh... I wonder if I'm giving them too much freedom... :P
Yep...but all that means is you just have to work harder for the whole
campaign, or start again... ;-p
Ok, so maybe it's not quite that bad, but it'll definitely be a LOT of
more work...Agreed. I allowed 25 pt buy and I regret it. I have spent hours of unnecessary prep time adding additional baddies just to maintain a challenge for my group. Increasing WBL and other benefits to the PCs will only add more prep time for you over the course of a very long campaign.
Luckily, you have the community here to help :)
Thankfully! :D
Currently, I'm just adding more similar monsters, or calling up NPCs that fit the situation, like the werewolf boss, bandit party above. For other encounters I change them significantly.
One of this days, I'm going to post a "HELP!!! I need to challenge my party thread."
Thanks for all the input!