Hestvon, the Halfling Hercules! Statting out the Small-sized Strongman


Advice


(Name still pending)

I admit it: I have a soft spot for the underdog. The idea of playing a short, scruffy adventurer just sings to me. It's no wonder, then, that I enjoy making pint-sized Pathfinders with titanic hearts. And no race profile fits my liking better than the Halfling.

However, I am often at ends with how to make them play on the same level with the 'big' kids. I feel that Halflings are often (unfairly) thrown into the 'sneaky, sneaky thief' category, and I wonder if they can do so much more.

So I got to thinking: how can I make this half-sized humanoid larger than life? Well, so far the only thing I know I want are the following things:

1. He must be a Halfling. No cutting corners, and no prancing about the issue ('cause Hestvon doesn't have time for that). I originally put Aasimar here, but I feel we owe Halflings a bit more respect than just a 'reskinning'.

2. Big sword and UNREASONABLE Strength. I want this guy to be out-armwrestling the burliest of Half-Orcs and bringing down a sword that defies realistic effectiveness in combat. So far, I'm looking at Ex Wpn Prof (Bastard Sword) for two-handing a Medium-sized BS in battle, but perhaps there is something better.

3. Out of combat usefulness/fun. Fighting is great (and Hestvon will be amazing at it), but roleplaying is the heart of the game for me. We have a +2 CHA from Angel-blooded, so let's use it! Also open to any suggestions for non-CHA related, non-combat fun (we have feats, skills, and traits to burn, after all!)

So what do you guys think? Let's assume only Paizo material, 20 pt. buy, two starting traits, and up to level 14 play (my group doesn't tend to go any higher than this)

EDIT: Race changed to ONLY Halfling in response to Secane's post below


Taunt seems like a must.

Lantern Lodge

Hummm.... well... can't you just go pure halfling instead of aasimar?

Cos... it kinds of defeat the purpose. An aasimar (small-sized or not) is surely much better then a halfling stats wise for a strong man build. Not to mention an angel-blooded, with bonuses to STR and Cha. Thats a +4 Str over a halfling right out of the box.

If you are going aasimar, there are already a ton of Barb and fighter and other high str builds out there... that is perfect for an Aasimar. Why even bother asking?

In short, I'm disappointed. I saw an interesting thread tittle and feel con by the mis-leading race selection.
A pure halfling Str build would have been VERY interesting. Another Aasimar build... not so much.


@Secane:

You know what, you are right: my title was misleading and perhaps I need to be completely fair to the base race. Editing my original thread to repose the question.

That said, how would YOU build a base, STR-focused Halfling?

@Glutton:

Beautiful. This is precisely something he needs!


Well I HAVE built a halfling barbarian. He was a raised by wolves mounted fury barbarian with a wolf mount, a spear, and a loin cloth. Used taunt a lot and speared things off my mount, was pretty fun.

Liberty's Edge

Well...with 20 point-buy you could do something like this:

Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Chr 12 (or Wis 8, Chr 14 if you like)

From there, you obviously make him a Barbarian, probably Mounted Fury as mentioned, grab the classic Barbarian rage powers (Beast Totem is great) and go to town. Nab him the Affable Trait and buy him plenty of Diplomacy and Kn: Local for out-of combat fun, and murder things with a Halfling-sized Greatsword or a lance once you go full-on Mounted Fury.

Feat wise, you want Power Attack first, then it depends on specific build.

This character isn't optimal, but is effective, with Str 18 while raging at 1st, probably 22-24 by 8th, and 30 by 16th...maybe 32 with a Courageous weapon. So...yeah, that's what I'd go with.


Deadmanwalking wrote:

Well...with 20 point-buy you could do something like this:

Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Chr 12 (or Wis 8, Chr 14 if you like)

From there, you obviously make him a Barbarian, probably Mounted Fury as mentioned, grab the classic Barbarian rage powers (Beast Totem is great) and go to town. Nab him the Affable Trait and buy him plenty of Diplomacy and Kn: Local for out-of combat fun, and murder things with a Halfling-sized Greatsword or a lance once you go full-on Mounted Fury.

Feat wise, you want Power Attack first, then it depends on specific build.

This character isn't optimal, but is effective, with Str 18 while raging at 1st, probably 22-24 by 8th, and 30 by 16th...maybe 32 with a Courageous weapon. So...yeah, that's what I'd go with.

So that's two votes for Mounted Fury then.

If we went the Barb route, what do you think about dipping Oracle for a level to pick up the Lame curse (to rage cycle at level 7+) and maybe go Nature Mystery to grab a wolf mount from level 1 (with Boon Companion)?

Liberty's Edge

Discomancer wrote:
So that's two votes for Mounted Fury then.

It's solid.

Discomancer wrote:
If we went the Barb route, what do you think about dipping Oracle for a level to pick up the Lame curse (to rage cycle at level 7+) and maybe go Nature Mystery to grab a wolf mount from level 1 (with Boon Companion)?

Level 9+, actually. But yeah, that's always a solid call mechanically. If you do go Nature Mystery (or Lunar, which can manage the same) you might want to ditch Dex and grab Extra Revelation for the Revelation that adds Charisma to AC instead, since it lets you jack Charisma, which seems thematically cool. Or not.

If doing that I'd go with something like this for stats:

Str 14 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Chr 16


I have a vision in my head of a halfling strongman with a circus who also makes and sells the 'Titan's Tonic', a strange brew that grants a man the strength of a creature of legend. So, trying this with an actual halfling:

20 pt buy: 18, 12, 12, 13, 7, 10

STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 13
WIS: 7
CHA: 12

Stat Boosts: 4th level Int; the rest Str.

Class:
- Barbarian 1: Rage. end of statement.
- Grab 4 level of Alchemist. 1st level you get mutagen and enlarge person as an extract. At 4th level you get bull's strength.
- other extracts can grant more feats of athleticism: ant haul, endure elements, expeditious retreat, jump, stone fist, touch of the sea, true strike. All perfect for the 'epic feats of hercules' shtick.

At level 1, 20 strength. Level 2, 26 strength. Level 5, 30 strength.

Feat:
Power Attack (1st). Why? Because you are trying to be as strong as possible. That's why.
- Taunt is fun and entertaining, totally fitting
- Future feats in Eldritch Heritage (orc bloodline); reskin as Giant / Titan bloodline

Weapons:
- no need to waste feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use a medium bastard sword for 1d10, 19-20/x2 and a -2 to attack (improperly sized) when a small greatsword is two handed and does 1d10, 19-20/x2.
- alternatively, get a polearm (bardiche 1d8, 19-20/x2) and swap Power attack for Combat Reflexes (and get PA at 3rd), then grab a cestus so you can punch things to death that are adjacent to you.

My 2p


From left field: In physics, there is talk of the cross-sectioning of muscles. A 5 foot-tall body builder can proportionally lift more than a 6 foot-tall body builder of the same muscle build. It's the reason why ants can lift ten times their body weight...if they were a foot tall, they wouldn't even be able to lift their heads.

But, carry on. Halfling strongmen, and such.

Liberty's Edge

Mechanical Pear wrote:

From left field: In physics, there is talk of the cross-sectioning of muscles. A 5 foot-tall body builder can proportionally lift more than a 6 foot-tall body builder of the same muscle build. It's the reason why ants can lift ten times their body weight...if they were a foot tall, they wouldn't even be able to lift their heads.

But, carry on. Halfling strongmen, and such.

Actually...this is true in Pathfinder as well. Halflings are unreasonably strong for their size, a max Str male Halfling at 1st level (Str 16) can lift 172.5 lbs which, assuming his height and weight are maxed (at 3'6" and 38 lbs), means he can lift more than four times his body weight, and one and and a half his body weight (57 lbs) as a light load.

A Human with Str 20 (the equivalent) can lift 400 lbs, but again assuming max height and weight (6'6", 220 lbs), that's less than twice his body weight and his light load at 133 lbs is only a bit more than half his body weight.

Now, in absolute terms, the human is stronger, but per pound? The Halfling is a bit more than twice as strong. And that holds true for most Halfling equivalent Str scores. Halfling muscles are efficient.

The same is true of Gnomes as well, though to a slightly lesser degree since they're a bit larger but no stronger than Halflings. Wayangs are just crazy strong.


The highest strength you can get from classes is by combining barbarian and alchemist. I'll leave it to you to find the best mix.

Lantern Lodge

Discomancer wrote:

@Secane:

You know what, you are right: my title was misleading and perhaps I need to be completely fair to the base race. Editing my original thread to repose the question.

That said, how would YOU build a base, STR-focused Halfling?

Hestvon, the Halfling Hercules! (Build ideal) -

Ideal is to make a build that matches the ideal of "Hercules" and is able to punch, kick, use any number of weapons from a rock or a club to a bow.

STR: 15 DEX: 12 CON: 16 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 9
STR: 15 DEX: 14 CON: 15 INT: 10 WIS: 12 CHA: 9
STR: 15 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 12 CHA: 9- Or something similar
(drop lv 4 into STR and lv 8 and 12 into STR or Con or Dex)

Now small PC on medium mount charger is all good min-max wise, but the title is Hestvon, the Halfling Hercules. HERCULES, as in the demi-god of strength!
Don't see Hercules running around on a mount in his adventures, so why should Hestvon?

We are going to make a well optimized, but stick to flavor-wise character.
So with the ideal of a halfling "Hercules" as an ideal, lets break it down what the mythical Hercules can do, and it is not all just Strength and kill monsters.

1) He can beat monsters to death with a club, fists or anything in hand
2) He is very strong
3) He is good with a bow
4) He wears the skin of the Nemean lion (which implies DR)
5) He is good at wrestling
6) He is very tough
7) He is not stupid, cunning even

That is a long list so, so lets try to incorporate as much as we can into Hestvon. I too would suggest Barb as a base, but we may want to level-dip to get what we want.

So Barb Titan Mauler or Invulnerable Rager, +Urban Barbarian, both match flavor wise, so its up to you, one or the other.
1) Titan Mauler is more weapon friendly (Cos with the right levels in you can start making use of medium sized weapons with no problems.)
2) The Invulnerable Rager+Urban Barbarian more about toughness AND the ability to boost your DEX, when you need to whip out a bow. Urban Barb
3) Or you can just go pure Invulnerable Rager for toughness, if you want to keep the skills of handle animals, knowledge nature and Survival

Now we want to show that Hestvon can take on anything, not just good with weapons, so lets grab unarmed strike and the ability to take anything and use it as a weapon. Hence we are going to take 1 level in Monk of the Empty Hand.

<WAIT WHAT?? Monk + Barb??? Lawful vs non-lawful? FEAR NOT! When there is a will, there is a way! The Key here is a trait called Enlightened Warrior for Aasimar - Idyllkin, grab it via the Adopted social trait. Now you can take levels of Monk and still be a Barb, as long as you are NG or N. The other method is to take the lv of Monk first, then change alignment and go Barb the rest of the way. (Method 2, don’t require the use of a trait.) Remember being non-lawful only stops you from progressing as monk, nothing is stopping you from being a monk first and then stop taking further levels in monk.>

Also don't be afraid to go a couple levels of Monk of the Empty Hand, say up to level 3. You won't really lose out on BAB up to 3 and can gain another feat, speed and an ability.

Monk of the Empty Hand allows Hestvon to punch others in the face and access to the Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything feats as a bonus. Now he can’t ever be weaponless.
Now, at this point we can go Barb all the way for pure beat them up! Or we can dip again for extra feats, or extra effects.

For example (EXAMPLE ONLY), we could dip 1 level into Warpriest for the Strength and Travel Blessings. Str for a little boost to attack and Travel to be able to get out of situations. Also able to use wand of less restoration if got fatigue or exhausted.
BUT! This should be a last option cos we already took a hit to our BAB with monk.

Feat options:
Catch Off-Guard, Throw Anything (Weapons are not a problem now.)
Endurance ---> Diehard (For a do or die Hestvon)
Toughness, Stalwart ---> Improved Stalwart, Fast Healer (More toughness)

Improve Grapple/(Other combat manoeuvres) If you want to start grappling,etc
Weapon focus (Bow/club/etc)
Improvised Weapon Mastery

Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot - take if you want to go more range or throw stuff better.

Traits:
Berserker of the Society - If you dip monk, lets grab a couple more rage rounds.
Adopted ---> Enlightened Warrior
Anything else you feel fits your story, after all that is what traits are for.

Regardless of your choices, lets review what Hestvon can do now (to varying degrees base on your choices):
1) He can beat monsters to death with a club, fists or anything in hand (Check! Fist to club to anything at hand)
2) He is very strong (Check! He is quite strong for a halfling. 16 Str at level 4 + 4 (rage) + 2 belt gives a 22 Str when raging.)
3) He is good with a bow (Check! He can pull off basic shots with a bow, with a dex of 14. Think more of Hercules vs the Stymphalian birds and less of a pure archer)
4) He wears the skin of the Nemean lion aka DR (Check! Barb will give him some or a lot more if Invulnerable Rager.)
5) He is good at wrestling (Possible, just having the Strength Surge Rage power would help with this.)
6) He is very tough (Pull all class points into HP and with diehard, you die only if an enemy takes out all your hp.)
7) He is not stupid, cunning even (Well… this depends, but you have 4 skill points and good will saves with rage and monk level dip. So you are much better off than most.)

Hope all this helps. Its not really a complete build, but the ideals are all there, hopeful you can take it further and complete it.


So taking into consideration all that has been said thus far, I'm looking at the following:

1. No mount. Secane makes a great point and I am inclined to agree: Hercules, though having a horse at times, never used a mount in combat (or, at least, not enough to make it part of his well-known lore).

2. That said, Barbarian is definitely a go. Reskinning the rage as a more controlled fury would work. Urban Barbarian isn't a horrible way to go with this, but losing the +10 MS isn't as cool thematically when you consider that Heracles was also a sprinting bad-ass (and the Halfling racial trait to bring the base to 30 would make him faster than most humanoids with it).

3. Taunt. ALL the way. I love this. However, to make it even better, would [url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final]Intimidating Prowess] let me use STR for the Bluff with Taunt?

4. Monk dip is good. It works and makes sense: after all, Heracles often beat things to death with his fists. Not sure about 3 levels, but one would give me the IUS and Imp Grapple that fits the flavor. It also helps that I am a sucker for Monks and dip them when I can anyhow...

5. Eldritch Heritage. Amazing. It'll take a while to get the STR bonus, but wander's suggestion of reskinning Orc to be a 'Titan' (or even 'God') blood-line would fit well into his claim to 'divinity'. Flavor = check.

Other than all of this fantastic advice, I wanted to see if anyone has had experience with the Bloodrager Advanced Class. Would such a class (assuming it is printed by this summer) be effective for this build?

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