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Hi, Im a first time player. A-friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend invited me kind of thing. So I spent the last couple of days pouring over stuff and this is what I came up with. Its a rogue build with strong melee abilities (as only 3 people will be playing and one=sorcerer & the other=druid/ranger, I felt I should try to be skill monkey+close-quarters fighter). Is it good, decent, stupid? What feats/rogue skills are useful that I have forgotten?
15-point buy (after Tiefling-mod):
Str 7
Dex 19
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 5
1 Feat Armor of the Pit
2 Rogue Skill Finesse Rogue
3 Feat FighterDipUnbreakable: Endurance;DieHard;Toughness
4 FighterDipUnbreakable: BonusFeat: Dodge
5 Feat Weapon Training: Rapier
6 Rogue Skill Surprise Attack
7 Feat Fleet
8 Rogue Skill Fast Stealth
9 Feat RogueTalent: PowerSneak
10 Rogue Skill Hunters Surprise
11 Feat RogueTalent: Deadly Sneak
12 Rogue Skill Defensive Roll
13 Feat FighterDipUnbreakable: CriticalFocus; Armor Training
14 FighterDipUnbreakable: BleedingCritical; Weapon Focus(Rapier)
15 Feat CombatReflexes
16 Rogue Skill Skill Mastery
17 Feat Stealthy
18 Rogue Skill Trap Spotter
19 Feat RogueTalent:ImprovedEvasion
20 Rogue Skill Opportunist
Note: Dips into Fighter are noted as FighterDipUnbreakable, rogue levels are not marked.
Thank you in advance for the help, Im in over my head; this game is super-complicated (and the rules are partially self-contradictory, or at least not-unambiguous, e.g. I begin taking advanced rogue-skills starting at level 10 as: "At 10th level ... a rogue can choose ... advanced talents", however: "Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level." This raises the question: Does "10th level"=10th level of rogue or 10th character level?) I feel like a lawyer trying to interpret this stuff.
Hello Daniele, I hope that you will enjoy the game. As for the build, in Pathfinder multi classing it is generally seen as a weak option, although it can be done effectively. One reason is that you lose out on the favored class bonus. Generally going with one class is easier and more effective. There are several classes that have good skills and can be good in melee. They include the ranger, inquisitor, bard, vivisectionist alchemist ect. Having said that this character is in no way “unplayable” or badwrongfun.
One thing I’d worry about this build is that with a low strength you could have trouble dealing damage. Sneak attack will help when applicable, but having fighter levels slows your sneak attack progression. Having a relatively small group could make flanking (one of the easiest ways to get sneak attack) harder to do, since it looks like your only really good flanking buddies would be the druid/ranger and his animal companion and anything his summons I guess.
One feat that could help is Dervish Dance http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat, it allows a character to finesse a scimitar and add their dex mod to the damage instead of strength.
You may also want to talk to your GM about how tieflings are viewed in his game, with a very low cha combined with possible discrimination could lead to some very negative NPC reactions. It depends on how the GM handles it, it could be a problem or not.
With a low wisdom you’re going to have a very weak will save, also you’ll have a little harder time finding traps, since perception is Wisdom based. As a personal preference I’d switch int and wis.
Concerning advanced rogue talents I’m pretty sure you need 10 levels of rogue to get them.
Some thoughts on the talents: Surprise Attack seems very situational, only working in the surprise round. I’d recommend switching it with trap spotter that’s also on your list.
At 7th level you might consider taking Iron Will instead of fleet especially if you keep your character’s wisdom at 8, just a personal preference I guess.
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I've not played a Pathfinder rogue but have GMd for many, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Martial combatants with low STR and high DEX are complicated, feat intensive, and not very effective. I suggest you try a simpler approach. You might check out the Guide to the Class Guides.
Are you starting at first level? That would be best. If you are starting at high level for your first session, which I don't at all recommend, it's even more important to choose a simple build approach. High level combat gets very complicated.
Your idea of taking at least one level of Fighter in order to be a more effective Rogue is wise. That works. Quite well, in fact.
The most simple, effective combat rogue build is based on STR. DEX a secondary pr tertiary stat. Something like (for a 15 point build) STR 14 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 10 , before any racial modifiers. Raise STR. This is the Brute Rogue in Rogue Eidolon's Guide to Rogues.
Even one Fighter level gives you access to all fighter weapons. Use a big two-handed Martial Weapon with reach, like a Glaive. Your regular attacks will hit hard and your sneak attacks will be deadly. Carry lots of additional weapons for specific situations, of course. Don't try to fight with two weapons: that approach is a trap that sucks up build resources without being better.
Your feat choices then become a lot simpler. You'll probably want Power Attack and Combat Reflexes to do more damage per attack, and to get extra attacks, respectively. Toughness is nice, for the extra margin of survival. Other than those few combat feats, you can load up on roguish sneakiness.
Tiefling is a fine option, but is more complicated than Human.
That '10th level' means '10th level Rogue', not '10th level character'. That's always the default, unless it says otherwise.
The rogue class is considered to be the weakest class in the game. Even when it comes to skill there are several classes that do better than the rogue. The best skill monkey in the game is the bard, probably followed by an inquisitor. A ranger is probably is only slightly less of a skill monkey than the rogue, but does a lot better in combat than a rogue. Sneak attack is often difficult to manage, and without some other form of increasing your damage you will not be doing much damage.
Your will save is so low that you will be an easy target for any will saves. You may end up doing more damage to the party then the enemy.
If you want to go the thief route look into an archeologist bard. If you want a skill based character who is more focused on combat an inquisitor would be worth looking at.
Planning out a 20 level build is quite ambitious for a first time player, and its impressive that you've done enough research by yourself, considering you've never played the game before. I'll offer some feedback on what you have so far.
I think the unbreakable fighter dip is asking for trouble. Lets say you take a nasty hit and end up at -11 hit points. Because of the Diehard feat you're still on your feet and can act... and are still a threat. If another attack comes your way, your hit points will drop to a point that you will be dead. Not unconscious, but dead. You must have some kind of contingency plan to keep either remove yourself from danger or bring your hit points back up. Honestly, I'd prefer to go unconscious and have several rounds during which my allies can heal or stabilize me.
I would rethink your ability scores. Obviously, with a 15 point buy its hard to get your ability scores as high as you like, but three dump stats is asking for trouble too. With a strrength of 7, your speed will drop to 20 feet if you carry 24 pounds, you're taking a -2 penalty to damage rolls, and depending on the game and your party at low levels you might need to climb things, which is a strength based skill. Dexterity is an important skill for you, but you're sinking an awful lot of points into starting with a 19. Same with a constitution of 16. The HP are great, but I would consider buying a 14 instead. The intelligence is matter of personal preference I think, but considering you already get a lot of skill points it might be overkill with a 15 point buy. Considering the abysmal Will saving throw you're going to have, I would actually recommend getting a Wisdom of 12. The charisma of 5 is also a matter of personal preference I think, but judging by your party composition, you might need to use some charisma skill checks from time to time. But if your sorcerer gets a trait that makes Diplomacy a class skill, then I think that base will be reasonably covered. Use Magic Device is considered by some to be one of the most powerful skills, and that is Charisma based.
And I agree with ChaiGuy about talking to the GM about how tielfings are viewed in his world. Demon blood and charisma 5 kind of screams monster.
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I completely agree with everything Mysterious Stranger and Ciaran said.
Veteran players sometimes play a rogue as a way of taking a handicap, for the challenge. Several other classes can do everything a Rogue can do, only better. Pathfinder classes are not balanced against each other.
Your allies are a Sorcerer and a Druid/Ranger. The Sorcerer is a primary arcane spell caster, and probably does both Battlefield Control spells and Blasting. We don't know what role the Druid/Ranger is, it could be either Archery or Melee Combat. Since you want to fill the Melee Combat role the Druid/Ranger is probably an archer.
It is tough to fill the main jobs with only three players, but can be done. You need to weigh how much you want your PC to fit your own concepts, versus how well to fit with the team. Some missing roles:
1. Sneaky scout type, unless the Sorcerer has a sneaky Familiar in which case the position is filled.
2. Frontline Melee Combatant, sometimes called a 'Hammer'
3. Support, sometimes called an 'Arm'
4. Divine casting is weak, since the Druid is multi-classed
I suggest several classes would mesh well with your allies:
1. A martial Rogue/Fighter would do nicely. A nice strong Brute would perform well, and would still have all the out of combat options of a rogue. Multi-classing is effective in this case, but increases complexity a bit.
2. A single-class Fighter or Barbarian. Great at melee combat. Not overly complicated.
3. A single-class Inquisitor. Good at melee combat, more roguish than a rogue, and able to case limited Divine spells. Someone above suggest an Archaeologist Bard, which is also a good option that fills a similar role.
A guy named Tark wrote an essay about how to build a balanced team of PCs in Pathfinder. That's basically what you are trying to do, as the most recent person joining. It's totally worth a read.
A demon-spawned Tiefling with a 5 CHA does scream 'Monster', and such a PC should expect constant trouble from Lynch Mobs, Paladins, gate guards, and pretty much all Decent People. Your actual personality probably does not matter, given the importance of first impressions.
In a party of three, its going to be more difficult for your to get your sneak attack damage. Honestly, in a party of three with two spell casters, I would feel inclined to play a fighter, barbarian, or paladin, or some other class than can fill the role.
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Thanks so much for the advice, my will saves were a big concern already and Iron Will was already on my mind. I only lowered Wisdom so much so I could raise my Intelligence; I was afraid a Fighter dip would prevent me from getting enough skills. I see I need to rethink my ability scores (i.e. lower Dex/Con/Int, raise Wis/Str/Cha).
Dervish dance looks like a nice alternative to an Agile weapon (which I was hoping to get at level 5, when the sorcerer takes Craft Magic Arms/Armor), as I can get it sooner, more cheaply, and more reliably.
To raise my carrying capacity I was taking Muscle of the Society as a Combat Trait, giving me an effective 9 Strength for carrying.
As for the other recommendations (take Mobility, drop Surprise Attack, etc) thank you very much for the advice, Im sure Ill integrate several of them into my build, which, I see, requires some serious rethinking and a less-hardcore devotion to Dex. Thanks again!
I want to see you go for it just because your strength is seven, and I wanna see that.