1. Awesome! Infiltrator Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition uses Wisdom instead of Charisma for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks AND adds their Wisdom modifier on Bluff and Diplomacy "in addition to the normal ability score modifiers"! So thats a +10 at starting stats, way more with a Headband.
2. I have Empyreal listed for some decent low-level spell casting. EDIT: wait, noticed your edit.
3. That is the awesomest ability Ive seen. Even as a Rogue, with my super high Wisdom modifier Id have lots of Ki points. Its a swift action, so I couldnt use it the same round as Violent Display, but thats ok.
So my character would be a tiny, hideous, little gnome who
runs around:
Scouts Charge and Spring Attack
punching people in the $§%&:
(SA damage, Str/Dex damage, Bleed, and Shaken)
and confusing:
with Bewildering Koan
his terrified enemies with questions about the nature of life!
Using Major Magic(Vanish) and Blinding Sneak Attack doesnt seem like a good option...
Precombat: Darkness/Vanish
Turn 1: Full Attack, all are sneak
Turn 2: Vanish
Repeat
With Moonlight Feint its:
Precombat: Blur
Turn 1: Swift action Bluff, Full Attack, all are sneak
Repeat
So Vanish cuts my attack in half! Vanishing Trick lets me full attack, but as a Rogue its limited to a few times/day and requires 2 Rogue talents. As I said above, if I was gonna that route, Id just roll a Ninja to get all the other benefits. Maybe thats the moral of this thread, Ninjas are better.
Ya, Vanish is a good choice, I might do that. The stat changes dont amount to too much (i.e. at level four the 1 Dex difference is gone, reappears at 8, etc. vs. +1 skill point and Int mod)
Pragmatic Activator is probably a great decision, but I was planning on a Feint build, so giving up Clever Wordplay I go from my +3 Int modifier to a -3 Cha modifier on my bread-and-butter Feint maneuver. Meaning I either cant drop Charisma, or need to stop being a feint build and start spamming Darkness while hoping no one has Darkvision or a Daylight spell.
I noticed the Svirfneblin the other day and thought Id build the stupidest/ugliest/weakest unkillable character ever: Multiclassed Deep-Gnome raised by Were-Tigers! Traits: Adopted:Tigers Claw; Fates Favored
Sorcerer gives Blooddrinking, cantrips, and Shield.
Inquisitor gives Charm of Wisdom(use Wisdom modifier for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate) and a Healing Judgement.
Rogue gives offense.
Level 1 AC= 10+Small1+Dex3+Wis5+Racial2=21 without Mage Armor or Shield
Level 1 Saves are: Fortitude: 8; Reflex: 7; Willpower: 9
At level 13 (with Headband of Wisdom6=Wisdom29) Id have
A Belt of Dexterity/Constitution would boost my Fortidude save, HP, and AC. I dont have weapons, so I should have cash to burn on a Jingasa(2 to AC)/Luckstone(2 to Saves)/Cloak/etc, too.
For my role in combat: My upper 30s (40s with any effort) AC and saves should keep me safe while Intimidating/Bleeding/Sickening/Ability Damaging everyone with my 4d6 Scout charges. If they happen to hurt me, I can heal 12x/day 1d4+2, and can turn on fast healing 1 for the duration of one fight/day. I thrive on attrition.
Outside of combat: I have a few skills from Rogue (and class-skill bonuses), and do the social, Charisma-skills with my Wisdom modifier. Ive got plenty of level0 spells from Sorcerer and Svirvneblin racial spells too, which could be useful for out-of-combat stuff.
My understanding is that heirloom weapon gives you proficiency with just that one particular weapon, not with all weapons of that class. If Im right about that, then I dont think it counts towards dervish dance's prerequisites either, because you dont have proficiency with scimitars, just proficiency with A scimitar. Kinda silly and Im not 100% certain, but thats what I had understood and a quick glance in a couple of other threads seems to show similar thoughts.
Youd need Ki Pool as well as Vanishing Trick. Hidden Blade is a Master Trick, I dont know if you can get it. Even if you can, thats 3 talents to get way fewer uses per day than you would have if you were a ninja. If I was going that route, Id switch to Human Ninja I think.
I like it. When I was considering a Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses build, I came across:
Violent Display:
"When you land a successful sneak attack or confirm a critical hit against a creature with a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you can use Dazzling Display as an immediate action." (Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon (2013), Paizo Publishing)
;and
Motivating Display:
"Whenever you use Dazzling Display to demoralize foes, you can motivate your allies to better serve you. In addition to possibly demoralizing foes within 30 feet, your Intimidate check while using Dazzling Display also applies to allies within 30 feet who can see you. The DC for this effect is the same as it would be to demoralize your allies. Each ally so affected gains a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls and skill checks for the duration that it would normally be shaken."(Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon (2013), Paizo Publishing)
.
With Spring Attack as a Thug/Scout you could in one turn move, get an automatic sneak attack for 1)extended Shaken on all enemies, 2)buff on all allies, and 3)Sicken on the direct target, before finishing your move action by taking a few steps back to safety.
Of course you have to be a Weretiger(kin) or "associated with" them. I dont know if you could just be like: "some of my best friends are Fanglords!" Just a thought. Spring Attack, though, seems to be made for a Scout.
I meant for the weapon proficiency, which is also a requirement of dervish. So a spare scimitar is -4 for unproficient, and uses your +3 StrengthModifier on attack and damage rolls, rather than the +11 DexterityModifier. Or do you have proficiency from something and Im just missing it? Sorry if thats the case.
As to Feinting being better than Scout Charge/Skirmisher, I meant at later levels with Moonlight Stalker Feint lets me Feint as Swift Action. It seems like the only way to get multiple sneak attacks. Using a Scout seems definitely simpler, easier, and robuster though, so it might be a better idea, Im gonna build it in and see how it looks.
Im still not sold on Darkness being better than Blur, though. Darkness is only gonna help me against opponents without dark vision, and Daylight could counteract it too. So, even if they dont have darkvision its only an advantage if the light level is normal->dim or dim->dark. By bright and dark theres no benefit. Blur is just a flat concealment and harder to counteract... Is there another benefit of Darkness?
Snickersnack: Thanks for the advice! I was gonna take Combat Expertise so I could take Improved Feint. Most people seem to be saying that the whole feint thing isnt a great idea so Id probably do that. Dropping my Intelligence (cause I dont need 13 for Combat Expertise) should let me raise my Charisma a bit, though Im not too concerned with being party face or anything. Rolling a Ninja is something Ive been considering. The problem is you cant be a Knife Master, but the benefits are awesome. Greater Invisibility several times per day as a swift action makes my Tattoo of Blur look primitive!
Also, I know Ive seen Offensive Defense before, but I didnt realize how big that bonus gets. Youd be an awesome duelist type (as in one-on-one fighting, not like that class). I dont see much information on Slayers, Ill keep looking around though, thanks for the tip.
Also, I allowed the dragon to use Power Attack (I did it that Bite is primary and Claws are secondary), and it doesnt change thing much. If claws are also primary, its a lot closer though.
Actually I think the CR4 Very Young White Dragon would be a good match for me at level 4. My costs are, Jingasa=3000, +1Dagger=2000, MW Buckler=150, and Potion of Blur=400. TotalCost=5550 with expected level 4 NW of 6000. With +10 Bluff against his DC15 I succeed .75. So with +1 Dagger (non-agile) my damage=
p(bluff)*HitChance*E[Dam from +1Dagger]+(1-p(bluff))*HitChance*E[Dam from +1Dagger + SA]=
.25*.55*3.5+(1-.25)*.65*12.1=6.575 DPR. With her 42HP thats 6.4 Rounds till death.
She attacks +8 Bite 1d6+3 and 2*(+8 Claws 1d4+2). I have, with Jingasa, MW Buckler, and Mage Armor, 23AC; so,
Blur*(HitChance*E[Dam]+2*HitChance*E[Dam])=
.8(.3*6.5+2*.3*4.5)=3.72. With my (8+3)+3*(4.5+3)=33HP, she should kill me in an expected 8.9 Rounds.
I was worried about Blur failing (I assume) against the breath weapon, which could do 4d4 Cold damage! Assuming 4Reflex + 4Dex against a DC14 Breath Weapon, I have a .75 chance of saving for half damage and 5 ColdResistance (I simulated rather than doing math cause Im lazy):
E[Dam from ColdBreath]=1.485, massively skewed to the right.
So I think I could kill it 6.4 Rounds and survive 8.9 Rounds. I expect to win even if she attacks first, but its by no means a sure thing and I walk away badly wounded even then. A Shield spell would put me over the top for sure. I didnt consider Combat Maneuvers just because I dont really have any idea how they work, having never played (I probably forgot some other stuff in the calculation too). An Agile weapon a couple levels later is a huge boost.
Haha, sorry to bug people with all that, I got to thinking about it and was curious if I would win. I think I could kill her (unless she had a buddy), but it's too risky. I hope as a high Intelligence/Dexterity rogue its not always expected of me that I can kill stuff. Id rather just steal anyway!
Hi, thanks for all the comments!
@Zilfrel: Could you be more specific? My offense starts slow, but I should be able to Improved Feint for xd8 Sneak Attack damage starting at level 3 and will pick up an Agile dagger around 5-6 I hope (based on NW that would fit, and we have a crafter). On the defense side, at level 4 I figure I can afford a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier and a MWBuckler for around: 10+DEX4+ARMOR2+SHIELD1+NA2+LUCK2=21AC. Mage Armor makes it 23AC; FlatFooted=23; Touch=20 for half the day, and a shield spell makes it AC26; FF=26; Touch=24. Seems ok for level 4, given that a CR 4 White Dragon has +8 attack rolls. Or not? I should have around +8 on my attack rolls too, giving me a .5 chance against his 18AC and a .6 against his 16FF if I use Improved Feint. So is it more the offense or the defense (or both)? Suggestions to improve?
@Shaxberd: I was worried that if every schmuck has darkvision (or a torch/light spell) I might get left in the dark on sneak damage. ... uhh, in the light. Besides which its only three times a day and Blinding Sneak still needs a way to get the first attack to start off each round. It seems really unreliable at higher levels, too, when people may have Light spells and such? Scouts only gonna work if Im movin, i.e. no multiples. I am looking seriously at scout though, ya, I might swing it that direction (i.e. Spring Attack chain rather than Moonlight Chain).
With feinting it seems like at higher levels I would be pretty much sure of getting sneak damage. With a Wand of Blur for concealment (and a blur tattoo from the sorcerer maybe, for longer fights), a Headband of Ninjitsu, a dueling weapon, and a high Int modifier I should pretty much auto-feint most of the time, i.e. either Move-SwiftActionFeint-SneakAttack; or, SwiftActionFeint-FullRoundSneakAttack. So, if I move, Feint=Scout. If I stay put, Feint>Scout. Or am I missing something?
@Rerednaw: My impression was that there were very few SA-immune foes... Just Oozes and Elementals once you get a GhostTouch weapon, right? Other than that, you nailed my concerns. Especially the money side, though I would only have one (main) weapon until 11-13ish, with early priority on the Jingasa, an Agile weapon, and the Luckstone, which is super awesome with Fates Favored, btw. +2 to all saves!, just not until level 10ish... Color spray seems crazy. I mean, what do I do? 14 Wisdom I could pull off, even 16 if I had too, but thats only gonna drop my chance of being one-shotted by five/ten percent! Id hate to drop a feat into Iron Will, given that rogues get like 4 feats total... Are there other solutions?
Thanks for the feedback, with the nine-million Tiefling Rogue builds floating around I thought I might get skipped over. And again, Ive still never played so I appreciate all the good advice in getting my first character ready. Id rather he died on the drawing board than on the table!
Hi, I was looking for advice on my rogue build, so this is super fortuitous. I made my first character a few weeks back (never used it), but it was terrible so I tried again. I'd be really appreciative if you could let me know if its decent or, if not, why not? The core of the build is Feinting with Intelligence, which takes forever to get online.
Level 1 Tiefling Rogue Knife Master:
Traits: Clever Wordplay (Bluff with Int Modifier); Fate's Favored (Luck Bonuses Increased by 1)
Feat/Talent Progression:
1 Armor of the Pit
2 Combat Trick: Combat Expertise
3 Improved Feint
4 Finesse Rogue +DEX
5 Blind Fight
6 Minor Magic: Acid Splash
7 Moonlight Stalker
8 Major Magic: Shield +DEX
9 Moonlight Feint
10 Feat: Greater Feint
11 Two Weapon Fighting
12 Weapon Training: Daggers +DEX
13 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
14 Dispelling Attack
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16 Crippling Strike +DEX
17 Moonlight Master
18 Redirect Attack
19 Quick Draw
20 Another Day +DEX
For damage, I take Improved Feint at level 3 and an Agile weapon asap. I hope this will be decent, though I don't expect crazy damage output. My offense starts to look better only around level 10. At that point, with high Bluff scores and a Headband of Ninjitsu all I need is concealment to land multiple Xd8 sneak attacks per round. A Maw-or-Claw bite attack and two-weapon fighting should prevent my offense from stagnating later on.
Defense is better, though AC is not as high as I wish. Unfortunately, with 10 Strength I'm at the limits of carrying capacity until more money is available. A Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier comes as quickly as possible (3k, +2AC) and also a MW Buckler. With Jingasa and Buckler my level 4 AC might be around: 10+DEX4+ARMOR2+SHIELD1+NA2+LUCK2=21AC. Mage Armor makes it 23AC most of the time. For a best case scenario with Shield, Ring of Protection1, and Amulet of Natural Armor1, I figure an upper limit around: 10+DEX4+ARMOR4+SHIELD4+NA2(+1)+LUCK2+DEFL1=28AC. Later on comes a Luckstone (20k) for 2 to all Saves (and SkillChecks).
It's my second attempt at a character and I still have never played, so please let me know if this is reasonable. Im looking forward to my first campaign and don't want to die in the first session. Do I have a decent chance of surviving the first few levels? Any pointers? Thanks alot!
Hi, Im looking for advice on a Rogue build. This is my second attempt at creating a Pathfinder character. The first one wasn't very good, and I haven't started the campaign yet, so I revised it quite a bit and tried to make a sneak attack build. There are only three PCs (ranger and sorcerer), so I can't rely on having a flanking buddy, thus the moonlight stalker feint build here. So, here goes:
Level 1 Tiefling Rogue Knife Master
Traits: Clever Wordplay (Bluff with Int Modifier); Fate's Favored (Luck Bonuses Increased by 1)
Feat/Talent Progression:
1 Armor of the Pit
2 Combat Trick: Combat Expertise
3 Improved Feint
4 Finesse Rogue
5 Blind Fight
6 Minor Magic: Acid Splash
7 Moonlight Stalker
8 Major Magic: Shield
9 Moonlight Feint
10 Feat: Greater Feint
11 Two Weapon Fighting
12 Weapon Training: Daggers
13 Improved Two Weapon Fighting
14 Dispelling Attack
15 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16 Crippling Strike
17 Moonlight Master
18 Redirect Attack
19 Quick Draw
20 Another Day
Improved Feint at level 3 and an Agile weapon asap should help somewhat with damage, though I don't expect too much. I would be purchasing a Belt of Dexterity, of course. I take Acid Splash for surprise rounds and Shield because rogues are not proficient, though I might switch that out and just buy a MW shield. I still would want Dispelling Attack later on, so I need Major Magic. I would be taking a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier as quickly as possible (3k for 2 AC), later a Luckstone for 2 to all Saves/SkillChecks/AbilityChecks. The core of the build is Bluffing with Intelligence, which comes with the added benefit of lots of skills and high bonuses. AC is not as high as I would like, but with 10 Strength Im at the limits of my carrying capacity until Darkleaf Cloth/Handy Haversack/etc. becomes realistic.
Later levels look better, with high bluff scores, lots of attacks (maybe an extra bite, too), and ample ways of getting concealment for using Moonlight Stalker Feint. The lack of multiples on sneak attacks until level 10 is terrible, but I dont see a way around it.
Is this build reasonable? Do I have a decent chance of surviving the first few levels (at which point, Jingasa, Agile, etc. changes things alot)? Any pointers?
Hi, kind of a not-so-important question, but Im playing a low-strength character and want armor, so it has to be very light. I thought a Haramaki was the only option (and I dont find it very "cool" ), but then I thought, how about Darkleaf Cloth Padded/Quilted Cloth. I was a little confused to see:
Darkleaf Cloth: "Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth. As such padded, leather, studded leather, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf cloth ... "
While Padded says: "Little more than heavy, quilted cloth ... "
So the entry for Darkleaf Cloth specifically states that Padded Armor can be constructed of Darkleaf Cloth, but also that items not made of leather/fur/hide (which Padded is not) gain no benefit. So, literally, you could make Darkleaf Cloth Padded Armor, but it would not benefit from being made of Darkleaf Cloth? I assume that's not the intention. So if Padded is ok, what about Quilted Cloth? Because,
Quilted Cloth says: "This enhanced form of padded armor ... "
So if Padded is ok, isn't Quilted Cloth (as a form of Padded) also?
Anyone have an idea? Only Padded benefits? Both? Neither?
Is it possible for a(n obviously level 10+) Rogue to use Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick to take a Master Trick? It seems like it should be, as Advanced Talents are just an extension of Talents and Master Tricks an extension of Tricks (ergo "unlocking" the one also provides access to the other?), but I wanted to double check.
Thanks so much for the advice, my will saves were a big concern already and Iron Will was already on my mind. I only lowered Wisdom so much so I could raise my Intelligence; I was afraid a Fighter dip would prevent me from getting enough skills. I see I need to rethink my ability scores (i.e. lower Dex/Con/Int, raise Wis/Str/Cha).
Dervish dance looks like a nice alternative to an Agile weapon (which I was hoping to get at level 5, when the sorcerer takes Craft Magic Arms/Armor), as I can get it sooner, more cheaply, and more reliably.
To raise my carrying capacity I was taking Muscle of the Society as a Combat Trait, giving me an effective 9 Strength for carrying.
As for the other recommendations (take Mobility, drop Surprise Attack, etc) thank you very much for the advice, Im sure Ill integrate several of them into my build, which, I see, requires some serious rethinking and a less-hardcore devotion to Dex. Thanks again!
Hi, Im a first time player. A-friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend invited me kind of thing. So I spent the last couple of days pouring over stuff and this is what I came up with. Its a rogue build with strong melee abilities (as only 3 people will be playing and one=sorcerer & the other=druid/ranger, I felt I should try to be skill monkey+close-quarters fighter). Is it good, decent, stupid? What feats/rogue skills are useful that I have forgotten?
15-point buy (after Tiefling-mod):
Str 7
Dex 19
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 5
Thank you in advance for the help, Im in over my head; this game is super-complicated (and the rules are partially self-contradictory, or at least not-unambiguous, e.g. I begin taking advanced rogue-skills starting at level 10 as: "At 10th level ... a rogue can choose ... advanced talents", however: "Starting at 2nd level, a rogue gains one rogue talent. She gains an additional rogue talent for every 2 levels of rogue attained after 2nd level." This raises the question: Does "10th level"=10th level of rogue or 10th character level?) I feel like a lawyer trying to interpret this stuff.
