No. The cap is a static number that is that number regardless of your caster level and Empower only effects variable numeric effects. The Cap does not vary period.What is the variable effect?
If the variable effect is the number of images... then the cap is simply a part of the variable.
If that were the case, why would they have to specify the maximum? Obviously, you can't roll a higher number than what can be rolled on the dice.
If that were the case, why would they have to specify the maximum? Obviously, you can't roll a higher number than what can be rolled on the dice.No. The cap is a static number that is that number regardless of your caster level and Empower only effects variable numeric effects. The Cap does not vary period.What is the variable effect?
If the variable effect is the number of images... then the cap is simply a part of the variable.
You cannot roll a number higher than the cap but you could empower it to be higher than that number. I agree with Remy and those that say the cap is the cap for the normal casting of the spell so at 12th level of casting it generates between 5 and 8 images. If I empower it the number of images it can generates is between 7 and 12 as I read the rules.
Others can disagree and cite RAW but the spell description only describes the unmodified version of the spell. So, we can argue back and forth but there are two interpretations of the rule as it applies in this case.
You cannot roll a number higher than the cap but you could empower it to be higher than that number.If that were the case, why would they have to specify the maximum? Obviously, you can't roll a higher number than what can be rolled on the dice.No. The cap is a static number that is that number regardless of your caster level and Empower only effects variable numeric effects. The Cap does not vary period.What is the variable effect?
If the variable effect is the number of images... then the cap is simply a part of the variable.
If that was the intent, I don't believe they would have specified a cap.
If that was the intent, I don't believe they would have specified a cap.
It is just a copy from the 3.5 version of the spell so I do not believe there was much thought put into it or intent. It was simply to say you can generate between one to four random images plus one per three levels that caps at 8 images in this instance or at caster level 12. I do think there was any more intent than to say what the spell did when cast as is.
Empower brings a new set of rules into it and while it cannot raise a cap number, it can cause an effect to go beyond a normal cap. I realize it is not the same as raising a 10d6 cap on Fireball to 15d6 but it is effectively doing the same thing by taking the damage and increasing past what the "cap" for the damage would normally be. I know the rules lawyers have already weighed in that raising the cap and exceeding the cap damage are not the same thing and I realize that. To me it is the same net effect and worrying too much over it is not worth it.
After reading Remy's interpretation I decided to look up the exact wording of the spell to see if he is right. After reading what is written on the PRD I believe he is correct.
The PRD says this:"When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total) are created."
The maximum is written in parentheses beside the variable with no break. It is one statement.
The Spell does not read like this:"When mirror image is cast, 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels are created. The maximum number of images this spell can create is 8.
The maximum is stated as a part of the addition, part of the variable, not as it's own distinct part of the spell.
As a comparison fireball expresses it's maximums very similarly:"A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area"
Does this mean that to know the maximum a fireball can generate you need to roll 10d6? If so empower and maximize are both useless, as every time you cast the spell normally (at caster level 10) you need to roll twice and take the worse result for a normal fireball (basically), and for an empowered fireball you need to roll a normal fireball worth of damage to determine what you cap at for your empowered roll.
If you interpret 8 as a hard cap for the spell, then every time you cast a fireball you have to roll 10d6 to know your cap this time.
No. The cap is a static number that is that number regardless of your caster level and Empower only effects variable numeric effects. The Cap does not vary period.What is the variable effect?
If the variable effect is the number of images... then the cap is simply a part of the variable.
By you're interpretation, would a CL15 Empowered Fireball deal 1.5 x 15d6 damage?
Also, how would that interact with Intensify Spell? Would the cap be multiplied by 1.5 then increased by 5, or would the 5 dice increase by applied first, the multiplied?
No. The cap is a static number that is that number regardless of your caster level and Empower only effects variable numeric effects. The Cap does not vary period.What is the variable effect?
If the variable effect is the number of images... then the cap is simply a part of the variable.
By you're interpretation, would a CL15 Empowered Fireball deal 1.5 x 15d6 damage?
Also, how would that interact with Intensify Spell? Would the cap be multiplied by 1.5 then increased by 5, or would the 5 dice increase by applied first, the multiplied?
This is, IMO, the most sound argument for not allowing Empowered to increase the cap. There's already a feat that increases damage dice - Intensified. If you applied the "Empowered increases the cap on spells" logic across the board, then you could Intensify a Fireball to 15d6 maximum, then Empower it to 22d6.
By you're interpretation, would a CL15 Empowered Fireball deal 1.5 x 15d6 damage?
Also, how would that interact with Intensify Spell? Would the cap be multiplied by 1.5 then increased by 5, or would the 5 dice increase by applied first, the multiplied?
I won't try and speak for Remy but here is how I would do my math:
Empowered Fireball (CL 10 or higher) = 1.5*(10d6) = 15 to 90
Empowered Mirror Image (CL 12 or higher) = 1.5*(1d4+4) = 7 to 12
It is just that simple in my opinion.
No. The cap is a static number that is that number regardless of your caster level and Empower only effects variable numeric effects. The Cap does not vary period.What is the variable effect?
If the variable effect is the number of images... then the cap is simply a part of the variable.
By you're interpretation, would a CL15 Empowered Fireball deal 1.5 x 15d6 damage?
Also, how would that interact with Intensify Spell? Would the cap be multiplied by 1.5 then increased by 5, or would the 5 dice increase by applied first, the multiplied?
As I understand it according to his interpretation an empowered fireball's math would look like this: (1d6 points of fire damage per level (maximum 10d6))x1.5.
A intensified empowered fireball would look like this: (1d6 points of fire damage per level (maximum 15d6))x1.5.
A empowered mirror image would look like this: (1d4 +1/3cl (max8))x1.5
In none of these examples is the maximum set out by the spells violated, they simply apply before the metamagic multiplier
So, how would this go with the Shocking Image spell?
Both the number of images and the damage they deal would be empowered
I don't think it caps at caster level 12. At 12 you get 5-8 images (d4+4). At 15, you get 6-8 (d4+5, maximum 8). So a roll of 3 or 4 on the d4 will give you 8 images. At 18, you get d4+6 (maximum 8). And at 21+, you would always get 8.
Yep, you are correct. I guess if you were high enough caster level, then you could always max out the standard cap. I guess we usually get to the point where everyone has some type of True Seeing by that point so the spell really doesn't have much affect above 12th level or so.
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For a while I was curious where everyone was getting the "12" maximum number from but after a few more posts I think I know where the confusion comes from for those thinking the cap can be raised.
The parenthesis is placed after the part that says +1 per 3 caster levels so you are thinking that the maximum is a figure of the caster level. In other words you think it is 1d4 + (1 per 3 CL (maximum 8)).
I would say that is a valid argument except for one word that they have that you are missing. It says "maximum 8 images total". Total means it is the sum of something. The only things that are added together within the spell are the dice result and the bonus images based on caster level.
So, the equation would be 1d4 + (1 per 3 CL) = X. X is the total and that total cannot exceed 8. Therefore you can never have more than 8 images.
Empowered equation would be (1d4 + 50%)+(1 per 3 CL)= X. X is still a maximum of 8.
Empowered equation would be (1d4 + 50%)+(1 per 3 CL)= X. X is still a maximum of 8.
I still disagree and say that a normal casting of Mirror Image allows for a maximum of 8 images total. An empowered version would allow for more as I read it.
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For a while I was curious where everyone was getting the "12" maximum number from but after a few more posts I think I know where the confusion comes from for those thinking the cap can be raised.
The parenthesis is placed after the part that says +1 per 3 caster levels so you are thinking that the maximum is a figure of the caster level. In other words you think it is 1d4 + (1 per 3 CL (maximum 8)).
I would say that is a valid argument except for one word that they have that you are missing. It says "maximum 8 images total". Total means it is the sum of something. The only things that are added together within the spell are the dice result and the bonus images based on caster level.
So, the equation would be 1d4 + (1 per 3 CL) = X. X is the total and that total cannot exceed 8. Therefore you can never have more than 8 images.
Empowered equation would be (1d4 + 50%)+(1 per 3 CL)= X. X is still a maximum of 8.
That is not how empower works. The spell effect subject to Empower is (1d4 + 1 per 3 CL) x 1.5. What we are saying is that the MAX function is inside the parenthesis in the previous example, therefore it is subject to the Empower function.
This is supported by the structure of the sentence of the spell description, where the maximum is in parenthesis right after the equation. This would imply that it is a maximum cap of the variable function. A separate clause or sentence stating the maximum by itself would strongly support that there can never be more than 8 images - ever.
As it is written, it supports a reading wither way. I just happen to think, and I am not alone, that there is a stronger argument that empower applies to the entire variable, with the max cap included in the multiplying by a half.
Until someone of game authority steps in to clarify otherwise, you can expect table variation.