I am a bit confused as to how this all pans out. As a 9th level owner of a Giant Scorpion Animal Companion I am trying to work out the attacks per round.
From what I can see, the Bab will be 6/1 for the attacks. It has Claw x2 and Tail Sting attack. With a STR of 23 would this give me:
Claw #1 12/7 (grab)
Claw #2 12 (grab)
Sting 12/7 Poison
All of these attacks seem to be primary according to the Giant Scorpion monster so not sure how the BAB would work in this case.
Or would it just give one extra attack to one attack of my choice?
The Scorpion is also wearing Banded Mail with Armor Spikes and an Amulet of Mighty Fists: Corrosive
When it does make these claw attacks, if I understand how this works, it attacks with a +4 to CMB to make a grab attack. Then, NEXT round if the grappled creature does not break free it can do its normal claw damage of 1d6+6 +1d6 acid PLUS 1d8 for armor spikes or is it an either or for the claw vs the armor spike damage.
Is the armor spike damage automatic or do I have to roll to hit with it or exactly how would that work.
Also, would an Amulet of Mighty Fists: Corrosive apply the 1d6 acid damage to all attacks including the armor spikes as they would seem to be an automatic or unarmed attack.
Sorry for all the questions but it seems like it could work in so many different ways it has me a bit confused.
A creature using natural attacks doesn't get iterative attacks.
So the scorpion can make a single attack with each natural weapon, as primary attacks.
So in this case, it would be sting/claw/claw at +11/+11/+11 (remember -1 to hit being large).
Alternatively, you can make attacks with a manufactured weapon (in your case the armor spikes) and natural attacks, but then they count as secondary (getting -5 to hit and half str bonus to damage).
In that case you would have: Armor Spikes/sting/Claw/Claw at +11/+6/+6/+6.
For your scorpion solely using the natural attacks, is the best option.
As for grappling, you either deal armor spike damage or natural attack damage. In your case the latter would be the best.
Also notice that the armor spikes grant a -4 penalty on the grapple check if you are not proficient with them (which I don't expect the scorpion is).
So all in all, you are better of not using the armor spikes, but they do make the scorpion look more cool.
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HaraldKlak wrote: A creature using natural attacks doesn't get iterative attacks.
So the scorpion can make a single attack with each natural weapon, as primary attacks.
So in this case, it would be sting/claw/claw at +11/+11/+11 (remember -1 to hit being large).
According to the D20PFSRD site of sample animal companions when a creature reaches BAB of 6 it gains an extra attack on the Primary attack.
Example: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/npc-co dex-appendix-1-animal-companions/animal-companions---effective-druid-level- 9
I cant think of any other reason these creatures would be getting the extra attack.
Is this information on the D20 site incorrect or outdated?
d20pfsrd is known to be often wrong.
In this case it is incorrect as usual.
Keep in mind animal companions do gain this at druid level 9:
Quote: Multiattack: An animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has three or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. So a badger would not gain an extra attack, but a pony would.
Selosa wrote:
According to the D20PFSRD site of sample animal companions when a creature reaches BAB of 6 it gains an extra attack on the Primary attack.
Example: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/npc-co dex-appendix-1-animal-companions/animal-companions---effective-druid-level- 9
I cant think of any other reason these creatures would be getting the extra attack.
Is this information on the D20 site incorrect or outdated?
The information is incorrect. Not sure whether it is the site, or the NPC codex.
If you take a look at the generel rules for animal companions.
Under BAB it is specified that they do not gain more attacks from higher base attack bonus.
Multiattack is useless if there are no secondary attacks, so I think that's why the badger was given a second bite even though that is not actually what should happen.
Thank you both for your replies. My confusion was in the sample animal companions having the extra attack.
So, if I understand this correctly, if I used the armor spikes I WOULD gain an extra attack from the high BAB as they are not natural weapons. The claw/claw/sting would be secondary but with the multi attack feat they would be at only a minus 2 instead of minus 5.
So, theoretically, would the full attack be Armor Spikes 11 / 6, Claw 9, Claw 9, Sting 9 for 5 attacks that round.
If the Scorpion were hasted would it gain an additional Armor Spike attack for a 11/6/11/9/9/9 attack sequence?
And yes, this is assuming that I take the feats Armor Proficiencies Light Medium and Heavy as well as Martial Weapon Proficiency: Armor Spikes, (I used one of the ability increases to increase the INT to 1 so I could take feats and skills). Wearing Spiked Banded Mail and Amulet of Mighty Fists: Corrosive.
Again, sorry for all the questions but as our party normally goes into combat with Inspire Courage +2, Good Hope and Haste going and the Scorpion is trained to be a flanker against myself wielding a Menacing weapon I am trying to be prepared for what may come into combat.
Looking like it is going to be Natural Weapons full attack, assuming Flanking of Claw/Claw/Sting 20/20/20 doing 1d6 + 10 + 1d6 acid and either Grab with CMB of 26 or Poison of DC19 Fort save 1d2 Str (6rnds), cure 1 save
OR if Grabbing it would do Spike/Spike/Spike/Claw/Sting of 20/15/20/18/18 assuming that one claw is busy grappling and cant attack or do natural damage.
Does this sound correct assuming fully buffed and flanking but not counting Grappled or other conditions?
Selosa wrote:
Does this sound correct assuming fully buffed and flanking but not counting Grappled or other conditions?
If the scorpion grapples someone, it can only make a single standard action to maintain the grapple, dealing damage once. Instead you want to release the grapple as a free action, and the make your full attack.
The number seem to add up to the attack routine, you mention. So with all those bonusses, it might be a good thing to have the extra attacks.
One thing you need to notice, is that you need your GM to accept you taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, since it isn't on the standard list of animal companion feats. Otherwise, an AC need int 3 to choose any feat.
In case of your natural weapons full attack, you still gain the extra attack from haste, so it would be claw/claw/sting/sting (or 3 claws and 1 sting).
In terms of damage output, you probably benefit from taking power attack, so it end up dealing 2d6 + 14 with each of its four natural attacks.
You need to read the grappling rules. Also what is the intelligence of your Scorpion?
In order to attack witht he Armor spikes while grappling it has to roll a grapple check and then choose to attack with the armor spikes. Why on earth would a scorpion do this?
At Bab +6 str 23 the scorpions attack is
Claw +11 Claw +11 Sting +11.
If it has an int of at least 3 it could do a MANUFACTURED WEAPON attack with the Armor spikes at +7 because it is not proficient in them.
Its attacks with both the Armor spikes and the Claws is
+7 armor spikes +9 claw +9 claw +9 sting and all the natural attacks are secondary weapons.
If the Scorpions int is under 3 it will /never/ do anything but a normal grapple once it grabs a target unless the druid is pushing it. There are no special Rules for using Armor spikes in grapples other than the armor spikes are a manufactured light weapon.
It will claw claw Sting, if it grapples the following round, it will just maintain to grapple. Vermin are stupid and will not use any other tactics unless pushed to do so.
HaraldKlak wrote: Selosa wrote:
Does this sound correct assuming fully buffed and flanking but not counting Grappled or other conditions?
If the scorpion grapples someone, it can only make a single standard action to maintain the grapple, dealing damage once. Instead you want to release the grapple as a free action, and the make your full attack.
The number seem to add up to the attack routine, you mention. So with all those bonusses, it might be a good thing to have the extra attacks.
One thing you need to notice, is that you need your GM to accept you taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, since it isn't on the standard list of animal companion feats. Otherwise, an AC need int 3 to choose any feat.
In case of your natural weapons full attack, you still gain the extra attack from haste, so it would be claw/claw/sting/sting (or 3 claws and 1 sting).
In terms of damage output, you probably benefit from taking power attack, so it end up dealing 2d6 + 14 with each of its four natural attacks. Sorry, I should have stated that my GM said my Scorpion could be proficient with using the armor spikes as long as I was willing to use expend one of its' feats.
Was figuring Hasted with a full attack of the armor spikes to give the three attacks, then, yes, two claws and one sting attack as the natural would considered secondaries I wouldn't be using the Haste on them.
So this way would be 20/15/20/18/18/18 3 spike attks for 1d8+10 and 3 natural attacks for 2d6 + 7.
The power attack option might be the better choice taking away the grapple penalty of the spikes giving 4 attacks of +20 to hit and 2d6+14 damage.
Thank you for suggesting it.
Mojorat wrote: You need to read the grappling rules. Also what is the intelligence of your Scorpion?
In order to attack witht he Armor spikes while grappling it has to roll a grapple check and then choose to attack with the armor spikes. Why on earth would a scorpion do this?
At Bab +6 str 23 the scorpions attack is
Claw +11 Claw +11 Sting +11.
If it has an int of at least 3 it could do a MANUFACTURED WEAPON attack with the Armor spikes at +7 because it is not proficient in them.
Its attacks with both the Armor spikes and the Claws is
+7 armor spikes +9 claw +9 claw +9 sting and all the natural attacks are secondary weapons.
If the Scorpions int is under 3 it will /never/ do anything but a normal grapple once it grabs a target unless the druid is pushing it. There are no special Rules for using Armor spikes in grapples other than the armor spikes are a manufactured light weapon.
It will claw claw Sting, if it grapples the following round, it will just maintain to grapple. Vermin are stupid and will not use any other tactics unless pushed to do so.
As the GM of my game allowed me to train my scorpion (INT 1) with martial weapon proficiency armor spikes then it would seem natural that the scorpion would consider using them as part of its' attack sequence. As it has a BAB of 6 this would give it a 6/1 on the attacks with a manufactured weapon. Using Haste would allow for a 6/1/6 with the spikes.
Being proficient and having the 6 bonus from Str would make 11/6/11/9/9/9 on the attacks for the round.
As HaraldKlak above mentioned the Power attack option might be the better choice from a numbers game. From a cool looking RPG factor though I just like the heavily armored spiked scorpion running into battle thrashing around with its' spikes claws and stinger.
I was building to a concept more than a numbers crunch. Looking like this might be very complex and get away from the heart of game so I will probably scrap the armor spike concept and instead go with the more traditional animal companion feats.
Thank you for your input, every bit helps
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