Selosa's page

Selosa wrote:

If he attacks with the Gauntlet only, would it become a Primary attack with full BAB and 1.5 StrMod damage or is it always going to be at a minus 5 to hit and half StrMod as per the specific wording of the item.

If he attacks with the gauntlet only, then it counts as a magical +1 adamantine gauntlet (which is a regular weapon), and not as a natural attack at all. That's how I read the wording, at least.

So, you'd then use full BAB, with iterative attacks if applicable, and with normal STR bonus.

I like that, good call, I think I had just gotten stuck on the whole secondary natural attack thing which was causing me the numerological headaches.

Thanks

Grasp of Granite

Aura moderate transmutation and divination; CL 10th
Slot hands; Price 12,300 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
DESCRIPTION

This left-handed black iron gauntlet appears little more than a dull soot-stained plated glove at first glance, but in truth it is a powerful boon granted by a god to his most faithful subjects.

Placing the glove on your left hand causes excruciating pain as your appendage curls into a tight fist and then slowly transforms to supernaturally hard black stone. You cannot use your left hand for anything beyond smashing it into objects or creatures (you cannot carry a shield or secondary weapon and you take a –4 on skill checks that usually require two hands).

The gauntlet cannot be removed without a successful casting of remove curse, break enchantment, or a similar spell. The gauntlet grants you a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and acts as a +1 adamantine gauntlet. The item also grants you the ability to use the gauntlet as a secondary natural attack. In addition, the Grasp of Granite allows its wearer to use stone shape once per day.

Sorry, should have included the item in the original post.

My questions arise from the line "grants you the ability to use the gauntlet as a secondary natural attack.

If he attacks with the Gauntlet only, would it become a Primary attack with full BAB and 1.5 StrMod damage or is it always going to be at a minus 5 to hit and half StrMod as per the specific wording of the item.

Hey guys, sorry but a lot of rules here are just confusing me as to which should be prevalent, would appreciate the help.

Magus
Lvl 3
Str 16
BAB 2

So far so easy, Melee Attack Modifier 5

He was afflicted / blessed with a Grasp of Granite.

This gives him a +2 STR and the hand can now be used as a secondary natural attack as a +1 Adamantium Gauntlet.

This is where it gets tricky for me.

If he uses only one natural attack normally it would be treated as a Primary attack at full BAB and 1.5 Str bonus damage.

HOWEVER the item specifically states that it is a secondary natural attack which would be at a -5 and .5 Str bonus damage.

To further complicate matters he wishes to strap a buckler onto the arm stating, and rightly so, that the buckler can just be strapped onto it. This would, of course give the -1 to hit as well.

So, when using spellstrike to cast Frostbite for instance.

What would his attack bonus be if he was using the Grasp of Granite to deliver the attacks?

And what would the attack bonus be like if he drew his +1 Katana and decided to try to take full attacks? As in, he casts Frostbite, quickdraws Katana, free Melee touch attack from spell strike, normal melee attack with Katana, secondary melee attack with Grasp of Granite all the while with the buckler strapped onto his Grasp of Granite.

Sorry, a bit overwhelmed by the options here, if someone could help clear up this boondoggle I would appreciate it.

Glibness. +20 to bluff checks plus a reasonable skill and you can make any intelligent creature believe pretty much anything you want. Tongues so you can communicate and your imagination is the limit.

You need to read the grappling rules. Also what is the intelligence of your Scorpion?

In order to attack witht he Armor spikes while grappling it has to roll a grapple check and then choose to attack with the armor spikes. Why on earth would a scorpion do this?

At Bab +6 str 23 the scorpions attack is

Claw +11 Claw +11 Sting +11.

If it has an int of at least 3 it could do a MANUFACTURED WEAPON attack with the Armor spikes at +7 because it is not proficient in them.

Its attacks with both the Armor spikes and the Claws is

+7 armor spikes +9 claw +9 claw +9 sting and all the natural attacks are secondary weapons.

If the Scorpions int is under 3 it will /never/ do anything but a normal grapple once it grabs a target unless the druid is pushing it. There are no special Rules for using Armor spikes in grapples other than the armor spikes are a manufactured light weapon.

It will claw claw Sting, if it grapples the following round, it will just maintain to grapple. Vermin are stupid and will not use any other tactics unless pushed to do so.

As the GM of my game allowed me to train my scorpion (INT 1) with martial weapon proficiency armor spikes then it would seem natural that the scorpion would consider using them as part of its' attack sequence. As it has a BAB of 6 this would give it a 6/1 on the attacks with a manufactured weapon. Using Haste would allow for a 6/1/6 with the spikes.

Being proficient and having the 6 bonus from Str would make 11/6/11/9/9/9 on the attacks for the round.

As HaraldKlak above mentioned the Power attack option might be the better choice from a numbers game. From a cool looking RPG factor though I just like the heavily armored spiked scorpion running into battle thrashing around with its' spikes claws and stinger.

I was building to a concept more than a numbers crunch. Looking like this might be very complex and get away from the heart of game so I will probably scrap the armor spike concept and instead go with the more traditional animal companion feats.

Thank you for your input, every bit helps

Selosa wrote:

Does this sound correct assuming fully buffed and flanking but not counting Grappled or other conditions?

If the scorpion grapples someone, it can only make a single standard action to maintain the grapple, dealing damage once. Instead you want to release the grapple as a free action, and the make your full attack.

The number seem to add up to the attack routine, you mention. So with all those bonusses, it might be a good thing to have the extra attacks.

One thing you need to notice, is that you need your GM to accept you taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat, since it isn't on the standard list of animal companion feats. Otherwise, an AC need int 3 to choose any feat.

In case of your natural weapons full attack, you still gain the extra attack from haste, so it would be claw/claw/sting/sting (or 3 claws and 1 sting).

In terms of damage output, you probably benefit from taking power attack, so it end up dealing 2d6 + 14 with each of its four natural attacks.

Sorry, I should have stated that my GM said my Scorpion could be proficient with using the armor spikes as long as I was willing to use expend one of its' feats.

Was figuring Hasted with a full attack of the armor spikes to give the three attacks, then, yes, two claws and one sting attack as the natural would considered secondaries I wouldn't be using the Haste on them.

So this way would be 20/15/20/18/18/18 3 spike attks for 1d8+10 and 3 natural attacks for 2d6 + 7.

The power attack option might be the better choice taking away the grapple penalty of the spikes giving 4 attacks of +20 to hit and 2d6+14 damage.

Thank you for suggesting it.

Thank you both for your replies. My confusion was in the sample animal companions having the extra attack.

So, if I understand this correctly, if I used the armor spikes I WOULD gain an extra attack from the high BAB as they are not natural weapons. The claw/claw/sting would be secondary but with the multi attack feat they would be at only a minus 2 instead of minus 5.

So, theoretically, would the full attack be Armor Spikes 11 / 6, Claw 9, Claw 9, Sting 9 for 5 attacks that round.

If the Scorpion were hasted would it gain an additional Armor Spike attack for a 11/6/11/9/9/9 attack sequence?

And yes, this is assuming that I take the feats Armor Proficiencies Light Medium and Heavy as well as Martial Weapon Proficiency: Armor Spikes, (I used one of the ability increases to increase the INT to 1 so I could take feats and skills). Wearing Spiked Banded Mail and Amulet of Mighty Fists: Corrosive.

Again, sorry for all the questions but as our party normally goes into combat with Inspire Courage +2, Good Hope and Haste going and the Scorpion is trained to be a flanker against myself wielding a Menacing weapon I am trying to be prepared for what may come into combat.

Looking like it is going to be Natural Weapons full attack, assuming Flanking of Claw/Claw/Sting 20/20/20 doing 1d6 + 10 + 1d6 acid and either Grab with CMB of 26 or Poison of DC19 Fort save 1d2 Str (6rnds), cure 1 save

OR if Grabbing it would do Spike/Spike/Spike/Claw/Sting of 20/15/20/18/18 assuming that one claw is busy grappling and cant attack or do natural damage.

Does this sound correct assuming fully buffed and flanking but not counting Grappled or other conditions?

A creature using natural attacks doesn't get iterative attacks.

So the scorpion can make a single attack with each natural weapon, as primary attacks.

So in this case, it would be sting/claw/claw at +11/+11/+11 (remember -1 to hit being large).

According to the D20PFSRD site of sample animal companions when a creature reaches BAB of 6 it gains an extra attack on the Primary attack.

Example: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions/npc-co dex-appendix-1-animal-companions/animal-companions---effective-druid-level- 9

I cant think of any other reason these creatures would be getting the extra attack.

Is this information on the D20 site incorrect or outdated?

I am a bit confused as to how this all pans out. As a 9th level owner of a Giant Scorpion Animal Companion I am trying to work out the attacks per round.

From what I can see, the Bab will be 6/1 for the attacks. It has Claw x2 and Tail Sting attack. With a STR of 23 would this give me:
Claw #1 12/7 (grab)
Claw #2 12 (grab)
Sting 12/7 Poison

All of these attacks seem to be primary according to the Giant Scorpion monster so not sure how the BAB would work in this case.

Or would it just give one extra attack to one attack of my choice?

The Scorpion is also wearing Banded Mail with Armor Spikes and an Amulet of Mighty Fists: Corrosive

When it does make these claw attacks, if I understand how this works, it attacks with a +4 to CMB to make a grab attack. Then, NEXT round if the grappled creature does not break free it can do its normal claw damage of 1d6+6 +1d6 acid PLUS 1d8 for armor spikes or is it an either or for the claw vs the armor spike damage.

Is the armor spike damage automatic or do I have to roll to hit with it or exactly how would that work.

Also, would an Amulet of Mighty Fists: Corrosive apply the 1d6 acid damage to all attacks including the armor spikes as they would seem to be an automatic or unarmed attack.

Sorry for all the questions but it seems like it could work in so many different ways it has me a bit confused.