I was hoping to start a discussion on a topic that I've been thinking about for some time.
I've played a few MMOs over the years (Everquest, Final Fantasy XI, LOTRO, DDO, NWO) and I've noticed a movement from difficulty-based games where there ends up being a class of player with better gear than most mainly due to skill/more time invested, to ones of accessibility where everyone can run all of the content and the rewards are basically uniform.
With regards to PfO, and this would mainly apply to PvE/Dungeon content, my questions to the community are this:
1) Is it possible to make content challenging for all players while not excluding anyone in the player base from completing said content?
2) If your above answer consists of a scaling or difficulty mechanism, how do you balance rewards so as not to exclude anyone from eventually obtaining the same loot while still rewarding those who complete the higher difficulty?
3) Do you believe, over time, that all players should eventually end up with the items that they want regardless of difficulty?
Goblin Squad Member
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Getting the equipment you want is easy, you go to a settlement market and buy it. Since getting the best equipment is generally the driving force behind end game content in MMO's to removes the requirement that everyone can run the hardest dungeon if all of the best equipment is player made. You instead have an elite group of players that specialize in running dungeons to collect super rare resources for sale to craftsmen.
End result is you can organically allow players to engage PvE content at the level appropriate for their skill level.
Getting the equipment you want is easy, you go to a settlement market and buy it. Since getting the best equipment is generally the driving force behind end game content in MMO's to removes the requirement that everyone can run the hardest dungeon if all of the best equipment is player made. You instead have an elite group of players that specialize in running dungeons to collect super rare resources for sale to craftsmen.
End result is you can organically allow players to engage PvE content at the level appropriate for their skill level.
What you are advocating is the 'tried and true' monopoly. Elite players farming certains dungeons or mobs for rare resources, and then maximizing their profits based on their rarity. The craftsmen have no recourse but to pass those costs onto the consumer.
I have never and will never exchange real money for an MMO currrency, but I am a firm believer in the 'Time vs. Money' paradigm.
With most MMOs I have played, casual players with the money to spare will buy gold to compensate for their lack of playtime in order to buy from a market with inflated prices. I, in turn, will play the game and sell my farmed/crafted loot to exchange my 'time' for their purchased in-game 'money'. When I played FFXI the gold farmers/gold buyers were a plague to the game and to its economy.
This is by far a less than ideal scenario. I can't imagine that a GW developer would be happy to spend weeks if not months designing a PvE dungeon only to have a small subset of the player base running it and monopolizing the loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your name is reminding me of the fact that one of these days I want to go back and reread the Silmarillion.
Anyways, it sounds like you're thinking about PFO as a themepark style game where you level up and then do progressively more difficult content to get better and better gear (until the next expansion comes out and you rinse and repeat the above). In a themepark that gear can never be lost to you unless you choose to vendor it, disenchant it or the like. As Hark has said, pretty much all gear in PFO is going to be player made. The only exceptions we know of will be along the lines of starting equipment. You can protect some of your gear from loss when you die, but not all of it. Replacing lost gear will be relatively simple (again as Hark said, just go to your local market and buy it from a player who is a crafter).
There's definitely PVE content, but again that's very different than what you're thinking of from a typical themepark. We haven't seen much info on dungeons for a while, but they are supposed to be randomly appearing. What's in them is still a little vague. I doubt we'll see any scripted boss fights as so many MMOs have. There will be quests, but since you get xp over time you're not going to be using them to level up. The key PVE content is instead escalations. Defeating escalations has an impact on settlements.
This will be a living breathing world where things are changing. They don't change based on devs putting out a new patch with new content. They change entirely based on player action. You might visit Brighthaven one day only to find a week later that Brighthaven has been razed to the ground by players from another settlement. (Nothing against Brighthaven. It was simply the first settlement name that came to mind). We're all eachothers content.
It's a totally different mindset than a themepark MMO!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your name is reminding me of the fact that one of these days I want to go back and reread the Silmarillion.
Same here. That book literally enchanted me.
OP: As it's player-driven, it's more about choosing what role you perform in the game which then is determined by what sort of gameplay you enjoy and in part what your group coordinates on. Of course part of the relevance and enjoyment of roles is how they combine with what other players are doing. From there you'll want the best tools for the job such as best items. As all items (or at least best) will eventually be player-crafted on the market then your specialist services of your role will determine your purchase power: Atst everyone is skill-training up increasing their purchase power against everyone else. If you niche is relevant and competitive and somewhat in demand then your purchase power goes up and the most fabulous items are within your means to earn.
Bear in mind if that sounds "cheap" (rofl) that the most fabulous crafted items will require lots of "hours of labour" ; the most rare components found and transported and crafted by the most skilled "artisans" in the settlements with the greatest advances in such areas for eg: some particular sword will require the hilt to be made from the dragon-scale of a rare and super-powerful and extremely rare Dragon; another component perhaps magical in essence from some alternative planar reality, another the actual metal perhaps the metal from some meteorite combined in the furnace of a high level settlement of at least 2 years old to develop such sophisticated buildings made by a couple of crafters of which perhaps no more than 50 out of 100,000 are skilled enough to create...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ the OP: it is nearly a year old now, but maybe you should have a look a the blog concerning economy Butchers, Bakers and Candlestick Makers
or maybe even Adventure in the River Kingdoms
unless someeone has a better reading suggestion that is:)
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Goblin Squad Member
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for the majority of upper level items I would expect that a craftsman has to pay for rare components from other craftsmen or gatherers rather than from PvE players. There will likely be some rare component you can get from PvE, but I don't expect it to be the end-all driving factor for the economy.
All this is just based on my personal, entirely subjective perceptions about the kind of game they're building, so I could be entirely wrong.
It's a totally different mindset than a themepark MMO!
I need to unlearn all that I have learned about MMOs.
@Gedichtewicht
I totally missed the part of that blog post saying ALL in-game items would be crafted. Thanks for the link.
Regarding the vague blog post concerning PvE dungeons, if they are instanced how would difficulty be determined?
For example, a group of 4 fighters levels 8,5,2,1 find and enter a dungeon. What level would the mobs be? 8? 1? 3?
I'm sure they want people to be able to group together regardless of level (similar to Guild Wars 2), but the 4 players above would have very different experiences in that dungeon based on how difficult the mobs were.
At what point do we see the old 'Sorry you're too low to run this' occur?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Beleriand, I would expect that, as the blog says, they'd be "set piece" dungeons; that is, they are static and don't scale themselves to the people entering them. If you're too weak to take on the dungeon (regardless of what levels your group is) get more people or do a dungeon that's easier. I really don't like the sounds of "you're too weak, so we're going to artificially inflate your power just for this area so you don't feel left out"; it seems like that would make it pointless to invest training into PvE combat skills. And what exactly is the cutoff for the handouts; do we also scale people to fight escalations? Other players?
Does GW2 scale people up if they're too low of a level? I knew it scaled people down, but didn't realize it did the reverse too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a totally different mindset than a themepark MMO!I need to unlearn all that I have learned about MMOs.
@Gedichtewicht
I totally missed the part of that blog post saying ALL in-game items would be crafted. Thanks for the link.Regarding the vague blog post concerning PvE dungeons, if they are instanced how would difficulty be determined?
For example, a group of 4 fighters levels 8,5,2,1 find and enter a dungeon. What level would the mobs be? 8? 1? 3?
I'm sure they want people to be able to group together regardless of level (similar to Guild Wars 2), but the 4 players above would have very different experiences in that dungeon based on how difficult the mobs were.
At what point do we see the old 'Sorry you're too low to run this' occur?
I like the idea of the player with the skill to find a dungeon (let's call him/her the "pathfinder") has to actually lead the rest of the adventurers in and along the dungeon... for them to enter and progress through it.
Just putting that out there. :D
We know dungeons will change level according to hex development is the theory on the drawing-board atm. So that probably will help gangs/groups of adventurers who specialize in dungeoneering to gauge their group make up. So level will probably be important on that consideration. But ideally skill divergence will be as important: Monster-slayer specialists (tooled up to take on Undead, ethereal, beasts or other eg) Pathfinder (rogue picking doors and finding traps and unlocking treasure chests) PvP specialist (to fight off other players wanting "your loot") and of course divisions other (healing, magic, material damage, breathing, psychology etc).
But back to levels, probably could be a wide division of mobs per hex dungeon so some mobs a lowbie could deal with others, they'd better back off for example and some dungeons they're really giving the rest of the party a bad back.
This is all far-off and tbd whenever dungeons as a feature are on the schedule and again likely to develop from a basic system via crowdforging. But for now the current ideas for dungeons are described fairly well:
Dungeons differe as above by 3 broad catergories (link above) but also by the hex and the condition of the hex (settlement index rating for example or wilderness rating also I hypothesize).
Does GW2 scale people up if they're too low of a level? I knew it scaled people down, but didn't realize it did the reverse too.
It's only down. I should've been more specific. Also, given how quickly it will be to level initially in PfO, my level gap example with level 1s and 2s isn't the best, but you get the idea.
I really think PfO will get far more things right than wrong, but I hope they can find a balance between challenging dungeons (with shiny loots) and creating easy content for all to ensure that 'Everybody wins'.
@AvenaOats
I too hope that they can implement a lot of skills and make them meaningful to the in-game experience.
Has there been any mention to the different in-game languages? Maybe it's just me, but I like the idea of being able to set my chat language and if anyone near me or in my group doesn't understand, say dwarven, all they see in chat is gibberish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So in GW2 you still have the problem of "I'm too low of level for that"; they just eliminate the issue of "I'm too high of level to help you without making it a snoozefest/nerfing your experience gains".
Personally, I think it's fine for people to lose. I mean, there has to be a cutoff somewhere for a % of the players who attempt a challenge to lose it, obviously, otherwise things aren't very interesting. A couple things that you have to keep in mind for this game, which could make dungeoneering in it look radically different from some themeparks:
1. Player scaling. The first few levels are where a player is radically different from other players, and those go by fairly quick; after that people are on close to even footing, though of course the edge always goes to whoever has the most time trained with other things being equal.
2. The open world nature of the game. As the blog says, you spawn an instance of a dungeon somewhere that anyone can go into. They might design the upper end dungeons with the intent that it takes roughly 50 players to conquer it; who knows. But I would caution against assuming it will be a regular 6-man party (or whatever number you're used to from your typical MMO), as the realities of the game may make them design it differently.
3. Scale. In your typical TPMMO (themepark MMO) you do normal PvE solo, dungeons in small groups, and raids in groups of a couple dozen. In this MMO, the design intent leads us to larger groups; you'll do normal PvE as a group, and will likely do dungeons as a couple dozen people and upper end dungeon or escalation content might have your group pushing the triple digits.
The specific numbers are all speculative, but I hope I've conveyed that this experience will likely not resemble your typical dungeon from a themepark. Hopefully one of these blogs goes into more detail about their plans for PvE soon. :)
I hope I've conveyed that this experience will likely not resemble your typical dungeon from a themepark. Hopefully one of these blogs goes into more detail about their plans for PvE soon. :)
I think you've broken it down quite well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a totally different mindset than a themepark MMO!I need to unlearn all that I have learned about MMOs.
Don't get attached to your stuff. It's all created by players, not bosses in dungeons you'll have to run again and compete against other raiders for when you lose it. You just need income from something, whatever your favorite thing to do is. Make sure you have enough savings to replace everything when you die (i.e. don't wear more than you can afford to lose).
For example, a group of 4 fighters levels 8,5,2,1 find and enter a dungeon. What level would the mobs be? 8? 1? 3?
At what point do we see the old 'Sorry you're too low to run this' occur?
The most recent information on that is very old but unlikely to change much. The basic concept is cities are safer and waaaay out in the weeds is most dangerous, so the farther from a city you go, the rougher the dungeon gets (though I remember something about a higher level catacombs or something inside settlements too).
There are less pronounced differences in capability between levels than themeparks so while the 8 will be shouldering more than 25% of the work, the 2 and 1 can still find something to contribute and not be useless onlookers. If the spot is closer in level to the 2 and 1, the 8 may never be in serious danger but won't be smashing and 1-shotting in a faceroll exercise either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. The open world nature of the game. As the blog says, you spawn an instance of a dungeon somewhere that anyone can go into. They might design the upper end dungeons with the intent that it takes roughly 50 players to conquer it; who knows. But I would caution against assuming it will be a regular 6-man party (or whatever number you're used to from your typical MMO), as the realities of the game may make them design it differently.
They stated before that the typical party-size will be 8 players. When it comes to dungeons, I hope they design them for that size. If you design them for up to 50 people, it then becomes like a Raid. Also getting 50 people for a dungeon you discovered could take a lot of time.
With large group too, you won't be able to take your time and slowly explore the dungeon. There will be bound to be people that will 'zerg' in a large 50-player group. I just hate rushing through dungeons because someone doesn't like to take it slow.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I need to unlearn all that I have learned about MMOs.
True 'dat.
Regarding the vague blog post concerning PvE dungeons, if they are instanced how would difficulty be determined?
For example, a group of 4 fighters levels 8,5,2,1 find and enter a dungeon. What level would the mobs be? 8? 1? 3?
We are a long, long way from being able to make dungeons, but here's the answer I think we'll start with before a process of Crowdforging:
The difficulty of the mobs in the dungeon will be independent of the makeup of the characters that enter it. And the difficulty might vary at different places in the dungeon. You might find mobs that are a cakewalk. You might find mobs that utterly crush you. You might find both of those mobs in the same dungeon.
Dungeons should be seen as substantially difficult places to venture, where the rewards are substantial, but exotic, where cooperative play with several characters with different skills is a requirement and where it is likely you can't do the whole dungeon start to finish with the same group of characters at a static level of power.
But it's still a long ways off.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I need to unlearn all that I have learned about MMOs.True 'dat.
Regarding the vague blog post concerning PvE dungeons, if they are instanced how would difficulty be determined?
For example, a group of 4 fighters levels 8,5,2,1 find and enter a dungeon. What level would the mobs be? 8? 1? 3?
We are a long, long way from being able to make dungeons, but here's the answer I think we'll start with before a process of Crowdforging:
The difficulty of the mobs in the dungeon will be independent of the makeup of the characters that enter it. And the difficulty might vary at different places in the dungeon. You might find mobs that are a cakewalk. You might find mobs that utterly crush you. You might find both of those mobs in the same dungeon.
Dungeons should be seen as substantially difficult places to venture, where the rewards are substantial, but exotic, where cooperative play with several characters with different skills is a requirement and where it is likely you can't do the whole dungeon start to finish with the same group of characters at a static level of power.
But it's still a long ways off.
Ryan, when you say that random "dungeons" will appear, do you see it as always being the classic underground dungeon or does this encompass out doors areas as well (ruins)?
And if you have answered this next one in the Blog, sorry, I have read the whole thing and can't remember seeing it....but in these dungeons, will there be traps and locks making thieves a must for all serious parties?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Valtorious
In a perfect world we would have all sorts of "theme park" style content that could spawn into the world. It's really a question of resource allocation - I'm certain we can figure out any design or placement issues if we work on them.
The easiest way to do this is to create a magic rock that you click on which takes you into a separate environment from the rest of the terrain. That has advantages like being able to run the theme park on its own hardware to reduce load on the rest of the system, not having to figure out how to spawn and despawn lots of objects in the middle of otherwise empty terrain, etc.
There's no reason you couldn't click on a magic rock and end up in an open air environment.
Getting beyond a magic rock, where content is integrated with the rest of the terrain is a big resource sink that doesn't have an obvious upside in the medium term.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eventually there could be some procedurally-generated (roguelike-like?) dungeons which spawn & despawn in escalation areas, and later some custom-created content which would have scripting and story elements, called modules.
With the procedurally-generated dungeons, I'd expect that you could go as far as your resources and fortune allow, with no guarantee that the dungeon is even possible to solve by those who enter. Modules, by being custom-crafted, could adjust to party power within a certain range, and would be more about experiencing the story than collecting stuff which would have a big impact in the sandbox-persistent world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We got a very good small future description for dungeons (above) and this article reminded me of it which might be of interest: Bake Your Own 3D Dungeons With Procedural Recipes
