Shield Slam Questions

[JLendon]

Shield Slam: "Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn."

Bull Rush says: "You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.

An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet)."

My questions: 1) If I knock an enemy into another enemy or even an ally, does that count as "another surface" and will it knock them prone? 2) In doing so, do I roll the 2nd CMB check to see if the character behind the initially bull rushed one is also bull rushed (knocked prone also)? 3) Does this bull rush take advantage of Imp+Gr. Bull Rush feats; such as bonuses and causing foe(s) to provoke from movement?

[Duncan888]

My gm hated this ability. It's been argued and I believe imp bullrush don't give it bonuses since it says it uses ur strike roll instead of ur cmb

[Duncan888]

#1 n 2 I'm gonna go with no it only works if u knock them into a wall. But I'm still new to pf but I read a lot of posts about it.

He hated it and shieldmaster feat so much I trained out of all the shield feats cause it was a headache.

[JLendon]

Thanks for you replies, Duncan888. I can understand your GM's frustration, but I don't want to give up on a fun and challenging build like this.

Anyone else want to try to tackle these questions?

[Quantum Steve]

1) A creature isn't a wall. Well, maybe if it a Gelatinous Cube.. but otherwise, no.

2) If the bullrushed creature hits another creature, you must make a second bullrush attempt as per Bullrush. Although neither creature is knocked prone.
If the second creature is bullrushed into a wall, then it is knocked prone.

3)Yes.

[TGMaxMaxer]

The way I read it,

1: No. They have to actually have the check succeed enough to make them move into an actual solid barrier.

2: If you push them into an occupied square, you have to roll the 2nd check at the -4 to see if you move the 2nd target as well. Once again, you would have to make a really high check, but if you had a wall, an enemy, another enemy, and you, you could theoretically push one or both into the wall, and have one or both fall prone. However, you would have to beat the enemy adjacent to you by at least 5(success would push him into the enemies square by the wall, and another 5 to push him into the wall itself), then make a 2nd check beating that CMD on the 2nd enemy by the wall with the -4 penalty(just a success pushes him 5 ft into the wall). At which point they both fall prone. If you beat the first one by only... 3, and then the 2nd one with the penalty, the one by the wall would fall prone and the other wouldn't... the prone one couldn't fall in the square occupied, per the rules he would go into one of the adjacent squares.

3: Yes, but you don't actually roll again. You take the total you had for the shield bash(since this case of bullrush uses the weapon bonuses) and add any bullrush related bonuses, like the dwarven racial relentless(+2), Imp/gr bullrush feats (+2/+4), Close Control from the Brawler archetype(+1-+5), the bonus of having an impact weapon in the other hand(+2), etc that were not already factored in to the original attack.

[JLendon]

Ok, I have a further question to ask about the scenario where you bull rush one opponent into another, and both into a wall.
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a=you, b&c=foes, x=space, |=wall

So, you take your attack roll, with all those bonuses (and arguably also the Imp./Gr. Bull Rush feat bonuses) and hit B with enough success to push him 10'+ into a wall, though he is pushed into C first.

Do you:

1) Roll a normal bull rush with the -4 penalty (NOT a shield slam--just using your normal CMB+Bull Rush feats/special abilities) attempt vs C to see if C is pushed into the wall? If so, then he doesn't go prone, since the Bull Rush rules don't stipulate that. Then I also don't know what to do with B, since he wouldn't be pushed directly into a wall from the shield slam. Maybe he bumps off of C and gets pushed diagonally to fall prone next to the wall either above or below C?

OR:

2) Roll a new bull rush attempt vs C using all the same bonuses from your SHIELD SLAM attack and include the -4 from bull rushing a second character in line, in which case C could end up prone (as per Shield Slam) and moved to the side as B pushes into him and then the wall to fall prone as well.

OR:

3) Same as 2 but no reroll, just using the same roll from the initial shield slam and subtract 4?

[N N 959]

I play a Weapon & Shield ranger and I have Shield slam so this of interest to me.

JLendon wrote:

Ok, I have a further question to ask about the scenario where you bull rush one opponent into another, and both into a wall.

xxx|
abc|
xxx|
a=you, b&c=foes, x=space, |=wall

The rules aren't clear about this situation. Let's go back to your first question:

1. No, a creature is not a "surface." I agree with SQ that a gelatinous cube, or any creature what completely fills a square might count.

2. This is ambiguous. Per the Bull Rush feat you make another roll for the 2nd creature. Per the Shield Slam feat, your attack roll is used instead of the CMB.

As a GM, I focus on this sentence from Shield Slam

Shield Slam Description wrote:

Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat).

Since "opponents" is plural, I'm inclined to rule that you roll another Shield attack, not a CMB check. But this is ambiguous because technically, the second target is not being hit by the shield. However, you could argue that the 2nd target is indirectly subject to the shield slam. AND....the character is considered to be using the shield to maintain the bull rush. I would expect GM variation on this one.

3. Technically, I would not allow the bonus from IBR + GBR to stack with Shield Slam. Shield Slam is not a Bull Rush attack. It's a "shield slam" and it functions differently than a Bull Rush. More to the point, you aren't rolling a CMB check you're rolling an attack. SS gives you a free Bull Rush attack, but you are not making a Bull Rush or you would not be able to knock someone prone. If a player wanted the bonuses from IBR+GBR, then make a Bull Rush maneuver, and not a Shield Slam attack.

Let's go to your second set of questions:

I'd go with a variation of #2.

Versus C, I would request the player roll a second shield bash with the -4 penalty. See above. If C were hit, then C goes prone. B does not, simply because the game isn't keen on two medium creatures occupying the same square. If I could impose the squeeze rules, then I might actually considering putting both B and C prone in the same square. Plus, this is more cinematic.

I'm not aware of the rules allowing you to shunt off a creature as you describe in #2, but perhaps they should? Consider that there could be a force strong enough to push two people against a wall and we shouldn't say it can't happen simply because we have no specific rules to move C to one side.

[JLendon]

Hi N N 959, thanks for your well thought out response. I agree with pretty much all that you said. I think the rules DO provide for the situation where one is bull rushed into another and then into a wall.

PRD / Combat section wrote:
"Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
.....
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer."

So, the first guy is slammed into the second, knocking #2 into the wall and prone (w/ successful 2nd shield slam roll-4) then #1 bounces back into his original square (his last legal square) without falling prone, I guess. However, if the shield slamming/Bull Rushing character can or decides to follow the first, occupying that one's last legal square, then that first guy gets shunted to nearest open square. What do you think?

[N N 959]

Yes. if the Shield Slammer is going to move forward, then I'd put C against the wall prone and B to one side or the other of C, also prone. B goes prone because B hits the same wall as C. I'd also let the Slammer decide which side of C that B falls on since the Slammer is directing the movement.

If the Slammer can't move forward, then B remains standing in B's original square (last legal position) and C is prone.

[Gorignak227]

To handle the hit creature into another creature opportunity and add even more fun: Raging Throw - http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/raging-throw

Raging Throw
You expend some of your rage to throw one opponent at another.

Prerequisite: Str 13, Con 13, rage class feature, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: While raging, when you attempt a bull rush combat maneuver, you can spend 1 additional round of your rage as a swift action to add your Constitution bonus on your combat maneuver check to the bull rush. Further, if you bull rush an opponent into a square another creature occupies or into a solid object, the opponent and the creature or object take bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier + your Constitution modifier.