Surprise and Uncanny Dodge


Rules Questions


Hi all, pretty new to the game and boards. I have done some searching on this topic but wanted to see if anyone was willing to give some info.

Our last game the GM 'surprised' us a couple times by having creatures attack without any chance for us to roll or react. Once was a gorilla pushing a guy off a horse by dropping from above before an encounter started. The other was a Wolf-in-sheep's Clothing burrowing under a guy and coming up under him during an encounter and knocking him over/attacking.

It seems to me we should be able to roll or react to instances like this in some way, either by a Perception vs. Stealth or CMD check or sometging. My own character has Uncanny Dodge so in my mind that should almost always give some sort of reaction check.

We have all been learning the system so likely he is just seeing things differently or making rolls I am not seeing. In the end it's GM's rules to keep the game fun and moving but any rules for these situations that would give clear guidance? It seems to happen a few times per game session.

Thanks!

The Exchange

Usually, yes - Perception vs. Stealth.

The GM can make up all kinds of modifiers. (If you're walking across dunes you expect the sand to shift so -10 to detect the burrower. If the ground is densely packed earth the burrowing leaves a slight surface trace; +5). Completely up to him.

And the GM might decide that some situations are so unexpected there's no way you can react (though these should be very rare).

What you are describing is a "surprise round." Barring some unusual abilities any creature that can act in a surprise round may only take a move or a standard action. That means the WiSC could burrow up to the surface (a move) but couldn't attack the same round (a standard). After that you would go to the standard initiative order. Check out page 178 of the Core Rulebook.

Uncanny Dodge only means you aren't flat-footed to an attack. You can still be surprised.


Belafon wrote:

Usually, yes - Perception vs. Stealth.

The GM can make up all kinds of modifiers. (If you're walking across dunes you expect the sand to shift so -10 to detect the burrower. If the ground is densely packed earth the burrowing leaves a slight surface trace; +5). Completely up to him.

And the GM might decide that some situations are so unexpected there's no way you can react (though these should be very rare).

What you are describing is a "surprise round." Barring some unusual abilities any creature that can act in a surprise round may only take a move or a standard action. That means the WiSC could burrow up to the surface (a move) but couldn't attack the same round (a standard). After that you would go to the standard initiative order. Check out page 178 of the Core Rulebook.

Uncanny Dodge only means you aren't flat-footed to an attack. You can still be surprised.

While I agree that it's Preception vs Stealth I disagree that moving above ground is the action on the surprise round (assuming preception checks fail). Rather the surprise round takes place after the creature bursts forth, otherwise you get really stupid surprise rounds.

The Exchange

It is of course completely up to the GM what constitutes the surprise.

In my view (and most of the GMs I know) the surprise round is the "holy crap we weren't expecting that!" Not necessarily the "extra chance for the bad guys to attack."

A swathed woman raising her veil to reveal that she is a Medusa. The man in the crowd next to you quick-draws a dagger and stabs you. You walk around a corner, see a shadow mastiff - will it surprise you with its bay? In the case of the WiSC it is a very slow creature. Managing to burrow under someone with its 5' movement is definitely a surprise to me.

Bear in mind that even after the surprise round you go to normal initiative. I have seen many occasions where the monster beats all or most of the PCs on initiative. So the WiSC could possibly burrow up, then get a full-round attack off before anyone else can act.

edit: again, I don't want to argue about "when the surprise round starts." That's going to be completely up to the GM and depend heavily on the narrative being told. My intention was to give the OP some pointers if her/his group is trying to stick close to "the rules."


Quote:
That's going to be completely up to the GM and depend heavily on the narrative being told

I agree to this, and you are correct that the GM has final decision on this. Let me just give one example encounter and then state one thing that happened to me in a PFS game.

What makes a better surprise round when bandits are laying in wait, hiding and laying prone. Would you force them to stand during the surprise round or would them standing up be what triggers the surprise round? No right answer to this, just something to think about

Once in a PFS game the GM made opening the door an action in the surprise round, this was very unsatisfying as it cost one person an action and the rest of us had to delay down to his very low initiative roll. I felt this would have been better had opening the door as the trigger for the surprise round.

The Exchange

You're right in a way. You probably should have been able to react in some ways.

But GMing is 1 part rules 3 parts story telling. If the story or scene works better by having some unique skill not work as written then so be it. As long as he isn't breaking anything too badly and you're having fun I wouldn't worry.

Shadow Lodge

coalrabbits wrote:
It seems to happen a few times per game session.

This is what worries me about the situation.

Sometimes the party gets ambushed. Sometimes the GM engineers things to make sure they get ambushed, either by using stealth tricks within RAW or fiat, because it's good storytelling (though I wouldn't negate PC abilities like superior senses without a very good in-game justification). But getting ambushed several times per game session is probably not good storytelling.

You mentioned you're new. Is the GM also new? Are they unfamiliar with the rules involved in Stealth vs Perception checks and surprise rounds?

In the event the GM is rolling Perception secretly (and this is common practice), does your entire party have abysmal Perception skill? Is the entire party surprised, or just some of them?


I'll be honest, I kinda over-use Surprise rounds myself while GMing, if only to give some enemies (usually ones alone) the chance to attack before the 4 Man Murder Squad takes them down.

Sczarni

Rushley son of Halum wrote:

You're right in a way. You probably should have been able to react in some ways.

But GMing is 1 part rules 3 parts story telling. If the story or scene works better by having some unique skill not work as written then so be it. As long as he isn't breaking anything too badly and you're having fun I wouldn't worry.

This.

If your GM is doing this to kill off PCs, then that's bad. If he does it to give you a good challenge, make you feel the struggle, and value your lives, while keeping it fun - Then you have a great GM :)
It is important that he only bend the rules at most, primarily to make sure his/her story plays out to the best ways possible.


Thanks all for these comments/answers!

The GM is indeed new and we are learning the rules together. I appreciate Rushley pointing out that a lot of GM'ing is storytelling and a GM obviously has a lot more to think about than a single player. If anyone one in the group is the Rule Lawyer it's likely me so I definitely keep quiet during sessions. We are all friends, however, so pointing out a rule out of session is not out of the question as we learn.

We have read over the Surprise round information and I just don't think the GM uses it at this point in our learning curve. It makes it a bit annoying but it never ends up having a major effect. We'll try to review it at some point for sure.

PS- The burrowing information out there is pretty scarce. In this case it was during combat and the WiSC came up under my character knocking him over. The GM said I was surprised and therefore couldn't roll to avoid it or anything. I did some research and it looks like a DC 25 Acrobatics check or something may have been called for (can't remember where I saw that).

Thanks again! The more I read in the threads the more we learn. Enjoying it alot.

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