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First i wish to apologize if this has been discussed to death.
So i was just discussing this with my players but why is it that characters who specialize in dex have to pay a feat tax if they want to use their main stat to hit? you dont have to pay a feat to use strength to hit or to add your strength to damage so why if you are a dex fighter (note im using fighter here as an all encompassing term for martials not just the fighter class)do you have to pay for weapon finesse and the agile enchantment (if its used in your games) to use this stat?
I am genuinely curious for a rules reason as to why a character cant choose at character creation to use either strength or dex to hit and for damage.
If you made Dexterity a viable alternative to Strength without any feat tax, you make Strength moot. Dex already boosts AC, there would be virtually no reason to have a strength based character, beyond the 13 needed to qualify for power attack. One of the big things that annoyed me about 4e was the way they wrote attacks around which ever stat they wanted to key attacks off of. It worked great from a crunch perspective, but no matter how handsome and persuasive the bard is, it makes my brain hurt that he stabs harder being more charismatic.
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Thats a fair point but its bad design to tax something just because it would make something else useless.
granted i could see the charisma bard in you example using his charistmatic nature to have the opponent not be able to guess where he will strike next, with lots of flourishes/ winking/ and quips justifying how he is able to do damage.
Yes you could bluff you way to making a hit with your charisma but why would it hit harder? Same question with Dex. I would guess that it is possible with supremely awesome training such as a feat represents (or magic for that matter).
Each stat boosts different things. Strength boosts to hit and damage with melee attacks and some minor skills, dex boost ac, reflex saves and a bunch of skills. In order to use a stat for something that it isnt normally used for you have to expend character resources, the same way a character that wants to use his strength to intimidate is going to have to get a trait, or feat to do so.
Dexterity already gives your character more AC, is used for lots of skills, is used for ranged weapons and for Reflex saves.
If you could remove Str from the equation with no loss there would be no point in ever using Str, which is only used for Attack rolls and dmg, a few skills and your carrying capacity (which is often ignored or you get a dimension bag by lvl 3).
The tax is there to even out the odds a bit and give reasons for Str build characters.
That's the way I see it.
While it does create something of a balancing effect, that isnt the reason the limitation exists. The limitation exists because that ability is what makes the most sense for the task. Imagine everything as a function of a common untrained person. Lets call him Joe.
Joe has no training in combat. If he were attacking an armored person who is capable of defending himself, his best chance of landing a blow that gets through the armor and defenses of the foe is through brute strength. He is just swinging the sword as hard as he can, since as we mentioned he has no combat training. More strength, more likely to do damage, and the more damage he does if he gets through (hits).
Using dexterity to hit is akin to fencing, using quick movements to jab inside defenses and at weak points in armor. Fencing requires training. No one was born knowing how to fence. If joe takes some fencing classes or some other training in such a combat style(IE takes weapon finesse) then he can use his quickness to attack his target IE use dex to hit.
Thats a fair point but its bad design to tax something just because it would make something else useless.
Just out of curiosity, how would you remedy the fact that using Dex fo attack and damage would render Str obsolete?
I suppose you could just allow Str characters to add Str to AC and saves, kinda like a Paladin does with Cha.How would you address it?
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A STR-based character also needs DEX for AC and Reflex and some skills. If a DEX-based character doesn't need STR for combat, only a few minor uses remain. He's essentially using only 5 stats instead of 6, so he can spend his build points better.
It's fair that you have to pay something for that privilege.
cool, where do I sign up for being able to pick a single stat that controls AC bonus, Initiative Score, Reflex Save, Hit and Damage in one go without any penalty whatsoever for going sooooo SAD or even needing to spend a single feat?
The game could use SADder martials or MADder casters.
As it currently stands, using Dex instead of Strength for melee combat is worth spending a feat or two on. Just as Sage Sorcerers take downgrades in other class features for the ability to use Intelligence to cast instead of Charisma. Intelligence is just plain better, and with the latest shovelful of traits you can even use it for social skills or UMD.
In a future edition, Strength should do more for (higher level) characters that use it. Their jumping ability, for example, could be pushed high enough to be an effective substitute for in-combat flight.
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Thats a fair point but its bad design to tax something just because it would make something else useless.
Just out of curiosity, how would you remedy the fact that using Dex fo attack and damage would render Str obsolete?
I suppose you could just allow Str characters to add Str to AC and saves, kinda like a Paladin does with Cha.
How would you address it?
Truth be told i am unsure. it would be a hefty overhaul i think however even just thinking about it starts to break so many things in the game since pretty much every mechanic is tied to stats in some way.
in the end it wouldnt be pathfinder as we know it but it will be a fun mental exercise i suppose.
I am reaching a point where i am starting to see the edges of the system and im not entirely satisfied with it (doesnt mean i dont enjoy using the system just that i am seeing some of its limitations)
In fairness, any martial character worth his salt can't afford to fully dump his Strength. Damage an' all that.
In fairness, any martial character worth his salt can't afford to fully dump his Strength. Damage an' all that.
Weapon Finesse for attack, Agile enhancement on the weapon for damage and Pirahna Strike for power attack.
You'll be dealing a bit less damage then an ordinary fighter, but in return you get to dump strength and boost dexterity.
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Thats a fair point but its bad design to tax something just because it would make something else useless.
That ... is actually the epitome of good game design.
You can argue that Weapon Finesse isn't a strong enough feat (it isn't) but arguing that it poor design in spite of the fact that it could potentially make Strength-based builds underpowered / useless doesn't make much sense to me.
Dex martials will never, ever outclass Strength martials. The way Power Attack works (giving Strength and a half when two handing) makes Strength characters deal statistically higher damage across the board. (also, 2-handed builds are better against damage reduction. The higher level you are, the more multi-attack builds are a bad investment)
Even if a GM allowed Power Attack to figure off of Dex for a character that uses their dexterity in place of strength (very debatable, rules wise), strength based characters will still do more damage, because the Elven Curve Blade is the only 2-handed Finesse weapon. Unless you're an elf, it costs a feat to use, so your Power Attacking Finesse Martial is still always going to be a feat under the strength guy.
Frankly, I'm OK with the idea of an Elven blademaster using Dex for everything important. Elves are supposed to do stuff like that. Even then, as a Martial, that racial Con penalty is going to hurt the blademaster as a frontliner. There's still a price to pay for the benefit of being all-dex all the time fancy elf sword guy.
Even if Weapon Finese and Dervish Dance were given out for free, all it would do is make a Dex martial as good as a Str martial. It definitely wouldn't make them better.
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Just seconding what a lot of people here have already said. Strength is the damage melee combat stat. Dex is the dodge things move quickly stat. Part of game balance is that these are two different stats.
Although I guess one could argue that it's unfair that strength is useful for breaking picking locks without using a feat.