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This came up during the final encounter of a PFS module last night, after 12 hours of playing. It devolved into a heated argument, because it would have resulted in a TPK had it gone the way the GM interpreted. The tension wasn't helped by us all having different versions of the CRB to reference, and oddly because we searched the forums and couldn't find that this had ever been asked before.
Situation:
- Two PCs stabilized at negative hit points, plus two PCs conscious but near death. Enemy spellcaster lies prone and within reach of one of the conscious PCs.
- Spellcaster pulls out a scroll of Fireball, provoking from the adjacent PC, who hits. Spellcaster proceeds to read the scroll. PC has Combat Reflexes, and hits again.
Questions:
1) Could the spellcaster have read the scroll defensively to avoid the attack of opportunity?
2) If he could have, what Caster Level and Ability Modifier does he use? His? Or the scriber of the scroll?
3) If he could have, but didn't succeed on the concentration check, would the scroll still be used up?
But here's the big question, because this is what happened:
4) Spellcaster was damaged while reading the scroll. Does the spell still go off? Does the spellcaster have to make a concentration check for being damaged while spellcasting? And again, what CL/Mod would he use?
There's a contradictory clause in the CRB about using a scroll and needing a concentration check only if you're subject to an ASF chance. The other argument was that, since the spellcaster was using an item, and not "casting a spell", that no amount of damage would affect whether the spell went off or not.
Sorry for the ramble, figured it'd be easier to present the entire situation and the different sides of the argument.
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The scribe of the scroll's caster level is irrelevant. Only the the spell on the scroll. 1st -9th.
The AoO is resolved first, then if the caster makes the check from the damage the spell still goes off.
I think your group tried to resolve this situation out of order which is where the confusion started.
I will need to search some more but I know casting a spell from a scroll draws attacks of opportunities (Brf quoted that line of the rules), however, I am not sure about being able to casting defensively and the subsequent loss of the spell.
I realize that it says it "provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does" but I am not sure that includes everything else like loss of spell and being able to casting defensively.
In every game I have played from 3rd edition to Pathfinder the scroll caster will take the attack of opportunity and the damage but no other effects. It is just that pesky phrase "exactly as casting a spell" that is now bothering me.
I will post a more substantial comment once I have time to look into it more and find something.
Alright. But what about the rest of #4?.
Does the spell still go off? The GM's argument was that, since the spell is coming from an item, it would still occur no matter how much damage the item's user sustained.
This has been my understanding, but, as I mentioned above, I could be flawed in my understanding.
So the scroll caster takes damage and is not able to avoid it through casting defensively and there is no chance of ruining the scroll or losing the spell.
If you allow defensive casting of a scroll, then a lot more questions come up like the op is asking. Is it my wizard's level plus intelligence modifier and feats/traits that go into my check number or is it the base once from the scroll as it is an item?
Does the scroll get used up? It is really hard to lose a spell off a scroll and I see this as a risky way to lose the scroll.
If I do not cast defensively and take the attack do I then have to make the concentration check?
Like I said, I have always just ruled it as an attack with no other repercussions than the damage, but the jury is still out for me right now as I am doubting my position.
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I know casting a spell from a scroll draws attacks of opportunities
We all know this.
I am not sure about being able to casting defensively and the subsequent loss of the spell.
This was the GM's argument.
I realize that it says it "provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does" but I am not sure that includes everything else like loss of spell and being able to casting defensively.We could not find anything in the rules that supported loss of the spell.
In every game I have played from 3rd edition to Pathfinder the scroll caster will take the attack of opportunity and the damage but no other effects. It is just that pesky phrase "exactly as casting a spell" that is now bothering me.
Us, too.
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Spell Failure
If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.
Spells also fail if your concentration is broken and might fail if you're wearing armor while casting a spell with somatic components.
There you go.
FWIW - I agree with Brf ([ooc]although you really shouldn't call a concentration check a "level check" - it's confused with caster level check enough as it is![ooc]).
There is definitely rules support for #1, #3, and #4. If you provoke exactly the same way, then you should be able to avoid it the same way, and suffer the same consequences. The DCs Brf quoted have to be correct.
For #2, and the modifiers to #4, there simply isn't any direct rules support. You typically the caster level is static while you are casting, so it's odd to use multiple caster levels.
And that's not even considering the possible issues on this if someone is using UMD to activate the scroll - do they get the scroll's caster level and ability modifier (I'd say yes), the maximum caster level they would have successfully activated with their UMD check and ability modifier they emulate, or 0 + actual ability modifier?
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Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
There is rules support.
But those mishaps are for the special Caster-level-check which replaces UMD if the caster is not a high enough level to cast the spell. It is not for Concentration.
And that is what he was referring to:
Note: It appears the the scroll is not necessarily expended if the CLC fails unless a mishap happens.
BTW - agreed, scroll is intact when Caster-Level Check fails but mishap Wisdom check succeeds.
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Next time you want to prevent a caster from using a scroll and you are in a position to make an AOO in response to his reading the scroll, try a sunder maneuver to destroy the scroll. Casters have terrible CMD so you will likely hit and you won't provoke, even if untrained, if he does not have a melee weapon ready. A scroll has a hardness of 0 and 2hp at best - if you can't destroy it with one hit then you sure as heck aren't going to down the caster by attacking him.
Alternatively, use a disarm maneuver to make him drop it. And if he picks it up he provokes again...