Dance of the Dead + Haste = Fast Zombies?


Rules Questions


The bardic performance Dance of the Dead says that it functions like Animate Dead. I'd imagine that you can create (temporary) Burning Skeletons with this ability if you're willing to pay double the HD cost per skeleton created. I wonder if casting Haste would allow you to create Fast Zombies though.

Honestly, I wonder how Fast Zombies get created in general using Animate Dead. Do you need to cast Haste right before Animate Dead? Right after? In the same round, which might require Quicken Spell for most casters? Can the Haste come from a wand? Can a team of two casters use the spells at the same time?

The Dirge Bard can use Dance of the Dead as a move action when it becomes available and as a swift action a few levels later, so Haste could be cast the same round with minimum fuss. Would Haste have its normal benefits as well as improving the zombies, or would those benefits get subsumed into the Animate Dead effect? I guess the same question applies to the Animate Dead spell itself.

Shadow Lodge

There's no clear RAW, but I'd assume one of the following options must be the case.

1) Casting Haste to make fast zombies is part of the casting of Animate Dead - the two slots are expended at the same time, with the standard casting action of Haste subsumed in the 10-minute casting of Animate Dead. Dance of the Dead cannot be used to create Fast Zombies because there's no extended ritual in which to cast the additional spell.

2) Casting Haste by the next round after casting Animate Dead or starting Dance of the Dead is sufficient.
2a) A bard must cast Haste in the same round (which is possible because at the level you get Dance of the Dead, bardic performances take only a move action to start leaving a standard action for Haste).

3) As (1) for the spell Animate Dead but as (2) for Dance of the Dead.
3a) As (1) for the spell Animate Dead but as (2a) for Dance of the Dead.

I personally would lean for 3a, but I think it's a GM call. Either way it shouldn't matter if the spell comes from a wand or another caster.

Haste would definitely not grant its normal benefits in addition to enhancing the zombies by analogy with counterspelling. If you cast Haste to counter Slow on one of your teammates, you don't get to apply the benefits of Haste to the rest of the party. Using a spell for a special effect prevents its normal effect - using Haste to turn zombies into Fast Zombies would not also grant the benefits of Haste (even if you have teammates other than the zombies you could affect with Haste).


The ability says it "functions like animate dead". Ergo, anything that works with animate dead also works with dance of the dead. Yes, you can create fast zombies.

Quote:
Haste subsumed in the 10-minute casting of Animate Dead

Animate Dead has a standard action casting time. Where are you getting 10 minutes?

The problem you bring up is one that exists by RAW with animate dead. It's never been clear as to when the haste spell is consumed as part of the process of creating fast zombies. Is the spell slot merely consumed as part of the casting of animate dead, or is a separate action required, and if so how soon after the creation process can this be done? The rules simply don't say.


I'd certainly allow it from a house rule, thematic standpoint.

Shadow Lodge

No, the rules don't say, but "next possible action" seems like a reasonable guess. Seems like the rules should have specified if you could cast two spells as a single action (and it does say you need to "cast" Haste, not expend the haste spell).

Though it would be interesting if there was no time limit and any casting of Haste (or Remove Paralysis) on normal zombies at any time turned them into Fast Zombies. Might even be a useful tactic fighting them since it gets rid of their DR/slashing.

Dasrak wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Haste subsumed in the 10-minute casting of Animate Dead
Animate Dead has a standard action casting time. Where are you getting 10 minutes?

I was getting confused with Create Undead (which has a one hour casting time). Teach me not to fact-check...


I agree that the problem of when and how to cast Haste exists with Animate Dead too. I'd guess that DotD should work however Animate Dead works, only how that works seems to be unclear. It would be nice if the extra spell is subsumed in the casting of Animate Dead since otherwise variant zombies might be much tougher to create than variant skeletons, especially if you needed to use Quicken Spell to cast both spells in the same round. I think "next possible action" sounds problematic since then the variant zombie would start out as a regular zombie for a round before transforming into a fast or plague zombie.

I suppose "ask your GM" might be the best answer here. Sometimes the GM wants to follow whatever's in the book though, and that's tough when the book doesn't really say.

@Weirdo - It is a bit of a side topic, but if one of your party members was Slowed and you cast Haste on the entire party I'd expect that everybody else would be Hasted while the formerly Slowed PC would go back to normal.

Shadow Lodge

Next possible action is a bit easier for the bard since you can do it in the same round. I honestly don't care either way, just trying to work through plausible rulings - next action is safer from an interpretation POV, but action subsumed would be simpler and probably not OP since it's not a huge boost the zombies.

Devilkiller wrote:
@Weirdo - It is a bit of a side topic, but if one of your party members was Slowed and you cast Haste on the entire party I'd expect that everybody else would be Hasted while the formerly Slowed PC would go back to normal.

You know, I looked up the FAQ I remembered on this point and it looks like they revised/clarified it since I last checked - it used to say there was no spillover, but now is says there's no spillover from counterspelling but may be for dispelling a multi-target spell already in effect like Slow vs Haste. So I guess if we go with the "round after" interpretation you could buff your allies with Haste while turning your zombies into fast zombies - but the Zombies in that case shouldn't get the normal benefit of Haste because in their case the spell goes into the Fast Zombie upgrade (like dispelling Slow on an ally).


Yeah, it seems like you'd probably be better of just creating regular skeletons and casting Haste on them. I just want to know the options in case a situation comes up where using DotD might be useful or at least amusing. I guess the fast zombie might be worthwhile if it were a creature with a fly speed. At our level these guys would probably never do more than provide flank and perhaps serve as a distraction.

This might come up more often with Animate Dead in a "non-good" Goblin Game we might start playing soon. How and if casters can cooperate to create variant zombies will be more important there though since the PC with Animate Dead will be a Witch who doesn't have access to Remove Paralysis or Haste but we'll have a Bard who will probably be able to cast Haste.

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