Dwarf for PFS play, Cleric or Warpriest?

[ezrider23]

Hey folks. I have PFS coming up this Friday and i've been on a try something new kick. I have a few characters that each have one scenario under their belts, i should have done a rebuild first off so i would have the 2 xp but alas i did not, so i'm looking to rebuild one into a Dwarf Cleric or Warpriest. I know rebuilds are sorta cheesy but whatever, i've earned the GP/Chronicle so i want to actually use it on something i'll enjoy.

Reasoning?
We don't have any actual clerics in play at my store.
We don't have any Dwarfs in play at my store and i like the race.
I want to play something martial oriented but not just a Fighter or Barbarian or another Ranger and i already have a level 5 Pally in play.

I'm unsure of the build but something very "Dwarfy" would be cool. Maybe reach but probably a BIG HONKIN HAMMARGH of some sort.

So with that said what are folks thoughts on Warpriest vs. Cleric?

[XMorsX]

A high lvl cleric is king no doubt. But at PFS lvls of play, a Warpriest is going to be a better martial caster, mainly because of his better action economy. His ability to quicken buffs and enchant his weapon + armor, as well as his increased attack bonus and his quick action healing, makes him a potentialy better choice.

It depends on if you want to focus more on support / offensive casting or in melee.

Dwarves are indeed a great race for these classes. They have great stat adjustments, and by combining the Steel Soul feat and the Glory of Old trait you can achieve impressive saves vs. spells and SLAs.

In addition, have you considerd the Inquisitor? With Judgments + Bane he can dish great damage too, he has useful spells, he actually raises skills and the dwarf alternate favored class bonus is fantastic. The Witch-hunter archetype adds into your save vs spells SLAs too, making your resistances against spells outstanding. Just an option to be aware of.

Deities that have a role-play connection (so that you can mix and match your prefered domains):

Torag
Cayden Cailean
Gorum
Abadar
Angradd
Folgrit
Bolka
Grundinnar
Kols
Trudd
Dranngvit
Magrim
Droskar (evil)

[nate lange]

i've been on a dwarf kick lately too! personally, i think the warpriest would be a better option- its impacted slightly less by the Cha penalty and it has proficiency with all martial weapons which lets you really benefit from the dwarves' weapon familiarity. add to all that the previously mentioned action economy issues and (IMO) warpriest definitely looks like a better option.

[Sir Thugsalot]

I don't know if I much care for War Priest, as it permits you to be mediocre in two classes instead of great at one. IMO you can do better by dip-multiclassing. I.e.,

STR:14 (15,14,12,12,12,12, 20pt array)
DEX:12
CON+14
INT:12
WIS+17
CHA-10

01 fighter1 (any archetype that retains heavy armor proficiency)
02 cleric1 (CRB/two-domains; any deity with the Travel domain)
03 ...rest cleric

Look at the trait selections in this tank build for inspiration. (The job of a cleric is to never drop for any reason whatsoever; as long as he's conscious, the PCs won't lose. His second job is to cast Breath of Life as warranted in upper-tier combat.)

[The Beard]

Warpriest of Torag for great goblin smiting justice. Sally forth!

[XMorsX]

Actually I will take back my warpriest suggestion. Fervor points scale with Cha and are one of the elemnts tha define Warpriests. You definately not want to dump Cha with one, the main dump stats every dwarf has. Cleric just loses channel energy uses and DC, it is not a big deal.

Sir Thugsalot, I agree with you about the high lvl play. Until then though, as Warpriest you have a major action economy advantage with the use of fervor points and the ability to enchant your gear.

Cleric or Inquisitor takes my vote as a result. Leaning to the Inquisitor more for the reasons I mentioned above.

[RainyDayNinja]

If you want to avoid the Cha penalty, you could take the Forgemaster cleric archetype, which replaces Channel Energy with some Int-based rune powers, and gets Heavy Armor Proficiency for free.

[Mondoglimmer]

One thing I might suggest is the Longhammer. No reason to have to choose between reach and a big hammer.

[The Beard]

Forgemasters actually have the potential to get pretty dang powerful, too.

[Chillsabre]

Are you trying to play absolutely a cleric or a warpriest?

If you are simply looking for a martial divine character with some spells, you could easily play an inquisitor.

I personally think the dwarf resistance bonuses matches well with the SPellbreaker archetype of the inquisitor or even simply the normal inquisitor.

They get judgements that boosts you as you lvl up, they add their wisdom to their initiative making you less of a potato and even on their checks for ennemy weaknesses.

You get for free detect alignement at will, intimidate bonuses, a decent HD and skill points (d8, 6+int).

You get to add bane to your weapons for a limited use per day but bane provides a +2 enhancement to your weapon and 2D6 damage if you can succedd your knowledge check and know the creature type its basically a no brainer.

You can easily supplement the martial abilities with items to boost your str and/or wisdom and by using power attack and furious focus when you have access to it.

Overall its a strong class that is often overlooked...

[Sir Thugsalot]

XMorsX wrote:

Sir Thugsalot, I agree with you about the high lvl play. Until then though, as Warpriest you have a major action economy advantage with the use of fervor points and the ability to enchant your gear.

If the flavor-of-the-moment per Paizo has heavy armor prof...maybe. Otherwise I'm not seeing the slight juice to your equipment being anywhere worth dumping spellcasting progression, and especially not in a dwarf (for whom heavy armor is a gimme-gimme).

Quote:

Cleric or Inquisitor takes my vote as a result. Leaning to the Inquisitor more for the reasons I mentioned above.

I've never played an Inquisitor, but I've heard a lot of good things about them. Nevertheless, they seem like yet another sneaky trap to get high-level PC divine spells off the table.

[Theconiel]

I have not played an inquisitor myself, but I played alongside an one in a campaign (levels 1 - 16).

WOW!

That character absolutely rocked, both on his own and by buffing the rest of the party.

[XMorsX]

Sir Thugsalot wrote:

XMorsX wrote:

Sir Thugsalot, I agree with you about the high lvl play. Until then though, as Warpriest you have a major action economy advantage with the use of fervor points and the ability to enchant your gear.

If the flavor-of-the-moment per Paizo has heavy armor prof...maybe. Otherwise I'm not seeing the slight juice to your equipment being anywhere worth dumping spellcasting progression, and especially not in a dwarf (for whom heavy armor is a gimme-gimme).

Quote:

Cleric or Inquisitor takes my vote as a result. Leaning to the Inquisitor more for the reasons I mentioned above.

I've never played an Inquisitor, but I've heard a lot of good things about them. Nevertheless, they seem like yet another sneaky trap to get high-level PC divine spells off the table.

I do not second Warpriests for a Dwarf either.

Inquisitors are not there to replace clerics, and of course when 8th and 9th lvl spells start being common they lose their appeal. But they are really good at what they specialise and solid to many things more.
An intmidator inquisitor can become the most intimidating PC you can build for example. With buffs and judgments you can keep up your attack bonus with dedicated martials, yu can use bane on the fly to match your enemies and you have actually enough skill points per lvl to have an impact outside of combat. They are a well rounded class. With a one lvl dip in crusader cleric you can have a good aura to take advantage of litany of righteousness (they have that too!) plus a free weapon focus or heavy armor proficiency (best use a mithral full plate though, as you lose stalwart with a regular heavy armor). They are great at making knowledge checks too.

[ezrider23]

Hey all. Thanks for the input.

I think i'm going to try out the Cleric though slightly tempted to try Inquisitor. Maybe i'll save that for later, we'll see.

I'm thinking Abadar(Eyes and Ears of the City) for my Deity. Longspear to start and then i'll grab a level of fighter for Armor and Martial weapons and upgrade my gear with my save GP before 2nd level play. I'm looking at the name of Tordek Steinhammer, so you'd think Cayden Cailean but... you don't get to pick who calls you serve.

I'm not sold on the Forgemaster Archetype. Crusader maybe but i'm leaning towards straight with a dip.

[Sir Thugsalot]

Fighter at 1st nets an extra hitpoint.

[ezrider23]

But it also means i'm a Fighter for for 2 more scenarios.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Don't forget you can rebuild completely for free before playing at 2nd level. That means you can play as a cleric for your first three games, and then take fighter as your first level and cleric as your second. It is gaming the system a bit, but it works.

I like warpriest, myself, but the Charisma penalty is a little daunting. It does scale with level, however, so you do get more over time. Plus there's no real reason to start with a wisdom above 14, since you'll be able to afford a circlet of wisdom long before you can cast 5th level spells, assuming you ever make it to 13th or higher level at all.

[Carson6412]

RainyDayNinja wrote:

If you want to avoid the Cha penalty, you could take the Forgemaster cleric archetype, which replaces Channel Energy with some Int-based rune powers, and gets Heavy Armor Proficiency for free.

Does the Forgemaster gain Heavy Armor Proficiency for free? I can not find that anywhere.

[ezrider23]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Don't forget you can rebuild completely for free before playing at 2nd level. That means you can play as a cleric for your first three games, and then take fighter as your first level and cleric as your second. It is gaming the system a bit, but it works.

I like warpriest, myself, but the Charisma penalty is a little daunting. It does scale with level, however, so you do get more over time. Plus there's no real reason to start with a wisdom above 14, since you'll be able to afford a circlet of wisdom long before you can cast 5th level spells, assuming you ever make it to 13th or higher level at all.

This is what i'm getting at. I'm totally playing the rebuild game with this guy. I'm just trying to find something to play for my next two scenarios and then i'll rebuild or just MC before playing at 2nd.

Maybe i'll read through Warpriest again. I do like the Domain and extra spells of the regular cleric.

@carson. I've not seen it anywhere that they get Heavy Armor. The Crusader Archetype gets a BF at first that can be spent on HAP though.

[XMorsX]

It is better to go Fighter 1 / Cleric 19 than crusader cleric 20. You lose too much spellcasting prowess otherwise.

[EvilMinion]

Carson6412 wrote:

RainyDayNinja wrote:

If you want to avoid the Cha penalty, you could take the Forgemaster cleric archetype, which replaces Channel Energy with some Int-based rune powers, and gets Heavy Armor Proficiency for free.

Does the Forgemaster gain Heavy Armor Proficiency for free? I can not find that anywhere.

In PFS, Forgemasters replace the Craft Arms and Armor feat they normally get at level 3, with Heavy Armor Proficiency. (just like wizards replace Scribe Scroll with Spell Focus)

So its a PFS specific thing =)

(as an aside, I do find it odd that the Craftsman alternate racial trait is not legal in PFS)

[ezrider23]

@ EvilMinion. You are correct sir. I forgot about item creation rules in PFS.

It would seem the idea of rebuilding is a moot point. Maybe some time down the road i'll try this out down the road. Sat down to play last night with my newly rebuilt Dwarf Reach Cleric and the rest of the group sits down at the table. What are we missing SKILLZ and PARTY FACE.
So i says, "Hey i just rebuilt this guy from my Reach Bard hows about i just play that guy instead." Problem solved. We had three players so we rolled with the Cleric pregen as a heal battery.

Party was all first= Hunter with Cat, Druid with Wolf and me a Reach Bard(who is looking to go into Cavalier and then Battle Herald). Not sold so far on the reach thing. Fishing for AoOs in PFS is really tough. Everyone is gung-ho and bottlenecks so it becomes the 5ft shift dance. Bodyguard and Helpful is nice to have though.

I'll keep tinkering with my Dwarf Cleric idea and see where it goes.

[Magda Luckbender]

I found it very hard to fish for AoOs in low level PFS play, but much easier from 5th level onward. I don't know why. Perhaps the players who last to mid level play learn decent teamwork and tactics.

[TarkXT]

I once sat down and did an indepth analysis between the two.

Frankly they come out about even on a number of fronts. Clerics certainly win the spellcasting game but warpriests can pull some rather ludicrous numbers. Those swift action spells and full bab on sacred weapons really make the difference.

[Chillsabre]

Why do you need that cleric anyways? Is it for heals? a druid with a wand should be just as efficient between fight with a few greater heals for dire situations.

You may also consider an oracle which is just as good. You do get a bit less spells as a result of being a spontaneous caster but but theres several powers in it that can be helpful.

The oracle of nature can add his complete casting stat (charisma) to his armor unrestrained by armor instead of dex and this allows you remove points in dex and concentrate in charisma, consitution and strenght if you must be a front. Also, all the charisma will allow you to be a face if need be as long as you invest your skill points properly.

[Rory]

This may be too late to help you ezrider23, but here is a potential dwarven War Priest. You don't actually need too high of a strength score to still sport decent to hit and damage.

Dwarrak the Dwarf War Priest of Ambiguous Divinity

S: 14 D: 13 C: 14 I 13 W: 14 CH: 12 (20 pt dwarf)

Blessings: Strength and Healing

Traits: Fate's Favored (+1 to luck bonuses, Ultimate Campaign), Reactionary (+2 Init)

Feats:
Weapon Focus - Dwarven Longhammer (WP 1) - or pick any weapon
Toughness (1st) - dwarf... tough... right?

Damage Feat Path: Power Attack (WP 3), Furious Focus (3rd)
Mobility Feat Path: Step Up (WP 3), Following Step (3rd)
Defender Feat Path: Combat Reflexes (WP 3), Bodyguard (3rd)

A fun potential might be to use Double Dwarven Waraxe (+1 on cleave attacks) and get the Power Attack and Cleave feats.

1st Level

- swift action Strength Blessing for +1 to hit (5/day Blessing)
- swift action Cure self (5/day Blessing)

2nd Level

- swift action Strength Blessing for +1 to hit (5/day Blessing)
- swift action Cure self (5/day Blessing)
- swift action buff self - Divine Favor for +2/+2 (2/day Fervor)

3rd Level

- swift action Strength Blessing for +1 to hit (5/day Blessing)
- swift action Cure self (5/day Blessing)
- swift action buff self - Divine Favor for +2/+2 (2/day Fervor)

4th Level

- swift action Strength Blessing for +2 to hit (5/day Blessing)
- swift action Cure self (5/day Blessing)
- swift action Divine Favor for +2/+2 (3/day Fervor)
- swift action +1 Sacred Weapon (4 rounds/day)
- gain 2nd level spells

+9 to hit = +4 BAB + 2 STR +1 WF + 2 Spell + 1 weapon
damage 2d6 + 12 => +3 STR + 2 Spell + 1 weapon + 6 Power Attack

The combat data is assuming no action greater than 1 swift action spent buffing. As a general rule of thumb, the longer the combat, the tougher the War Priest will get.

****************************************

5th level adds a feat
6th level adds a feat, bumps Divine Favor to +3/+3, adds a second attack
7th level adds a feat, gains 3rd level spells, adds a token +AC swift action

and so on...

[ezrider23]

Chillsabre wrote:

Why do you need that cleric anyways?

I've been on a try something new kick. AND

We don't have any actual clerics in play at my store.
We don't have any Dwarfs in play at my store and i like the race.

Quoted from the initial post. It's not need but more want.