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After trying out several Pathfinder modules, I started to become increasingly frustrated with the way the worked for a variety of reasons.
1. I seemed to be given way to much information then I actually needed.
2. They always seemed to weak for the groups I was running the campaign for.
3. Some of the set dialogue for the NPC's seemed really corny and un-immersive.
4. With the common use of magic, it never made sense to me why the world was in that state that it was in. (If magical items tended to be so common, then how was it not being fully utilized. How had the world not imploded on itself from the amount of evil forces trying to bring forth it's demise.
Now I'm aware that I can add and subtract from Paizo campaigns as much as I see fit, but I always had this fear that some detail that I chose to omit would come up later in another book as a key plot point so I never did so. I am also aware that nothing was ever preventing me from buffing the monsters aside from laziness on my own part. But this isn't a thread to bash on Paizo campaigns as I realize how hard it would be to market campaigns to a wide variety of Pathfinder players. So I decided to try my hand at my custom campaign setting and set some goals for what I wanted in my campaign.
1. Reduce the use of magic in the world. I always thought that if magic was as prominent in the world of Golarion as it was, then the setting would look much different. While I could focus on changing the world to fit a high magic campaign setting, I find it easier to just make magic more rare or in my case, make it more dangerous.
2. Breathe life into the characters. I am a big Wheel of Time fan and one thing I felt like the Wheel of Time did well was make the world and characters come alive. I'm tired of PC's killing shopkeepers for loot or just being a bunch of sociopath's in general. If you kill a NPC, things are gonna happen, whether that NPC is a enemy or just the local merchant. One step I see to accomplishing this is by avoiding generic NPC's.
3. Breathe life into the world. I felt that Paizo might have done a good job of this with Golarion, but I am honestly not sure because I didn't want to read through all the lore for that stuff. Hell it's taken me 4 years to get a solid feel for the Pathfinder mechanics. In order to breathe life into a world, it means the world can't be in stasis. The world is very much a living thing that will react to it's surroundings. If players choose to ignore a dungeon or pass by a quest, stuff is gonna happen.
I have already started planning a campaign around this and hope to post what I have come up with soon. I very much plan to stay active on this thread as I discover more and see what works and what doesn't. Please feel free to add to what I have as I am still trying to narrow down what will keep the players absolutely immersed and into the campaign.
You said more dangerous... so does that mean it:
Has a chance to backfire (cast what ever on you not then)
has a chance to malfunction (obtaining the broken condition)
Or
Inflicts pain when used
Or does alot more damage but has chance of one of above to happen
I'm curious to where this thread goes as well
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I'm tired of PC's killing shopkeepers for loot or just being a bunch of sociopath's in general. If you kill a NPC, things are gonna happen, whether that NPC is a enemy or just the local merchant. One step I see to accomplishing this is by avoiding generic NPC's
One of the things my old Gm did that I do now if that the shopkeeper is ALWAYS more than they seem at first glance. That smith? He's actually a former adventurer monk who has turned to metalworking to find peace.
The magic shop owner should obviously be a tough cookie as well. How else did he make these things? He has a contingency set within his shop to where any thief or ruffian is instantly affected by the Hold Person spell. Guards come, take you away (or worse, he's actually a dark sorcerer who uses these people as test subjects).
I learned very quickly to never let my players think this sort of thing is okay unless they have put some effort into being a thief, and even then it is an encounter level challenge. Maybe they do succeed... too bad the PC thieves now are covered in a magical equivalent of that blue paint bomb s*!% they do in real life for bank robbers.
As for the rest of what you're saying, I think you're going in a good direction. I think the reason you, like myself, haven't gotten much into the setting and lore is that it isn't your own.
Frankly the folks at Paizo who spend 40 hours a week making these things probably are better writers/designers and me or most GMs, but I am able to spin intrigue and make the world feel more real whenever I have an intimate, godlike control of the entirety of the world. I have a base core of how my world works and my players understand it. Whenever they ask me a question about it I can INSTANTLY give them an answer and I am certain it is the truth or at least truth as the PC/NPC understands it.
For example: in my last campaign (an evil campaign) an anti-paladin in my group wanted to know what would be the religious or social repercussions of him eating the heart of a defeated dragon who was a spy for an enemy nation. I had no idea and if this was an adventure path I'd be kinda just stuck. Instead I instantly spun it into, "nothing wrong with it. However, among the dragons eating the heart of your father is a rite of passage in assuming the role of the patriarch/matriarch and is a sacred ritual. So if you ate this big mamma dragon's heart it could be an immense sign of disrespect at your defeated enemy and thus could be seen as exactly the sort of thing to be expected from a person of your position (as an anti-paladin). It would solidify the end of her lineage. However, it could also be seen as highly questionable action, especially among those in your faith who know the dragons do this, but do not necessarily understand why. Some may even see it as a sign that you have some respect for their faith.
In the end the PC ate the heart, a church official honored him for such a display of force and brutality, and the father of the mamma dragon sought revenge.
You said more dangerous... so does that mean it:
Has a chance to backfire (cast what ever on you not then)
has a chance to malfunction (obtaining the broken condition)
Or
Inflicts pain when used
Or does alot more damage but has chance of one of above to happenI'm curious to where this thread goes as well
It has a chance to backfire on a failed concentration check, though "backfire" might not be the right word as it also has a chance to do something raw and destructive, which could be exactly what you're looking for in a certain situation. I will be posting what I have come up with so far as a campaign point pretty soon.
I'm tired of PC's killing shopkeepers for loot or just being a bunch of sociopath's in general. If you kill a NPC, things are gonna happen, whether that NPC is a enemy or just the local merchant. One step I see to accomplishing this is by avoiding generic NPC'sOne of the things my old Gm did that I do now if that the shopkeeper is ALWAYS more than they seem at first glance. That smith? He's actually a former adventurer monk who has turned to metalworking to find peace.
The magic shop owner should obviously be a tough cookie as well. How else did he make these things? He has a contingency set within his shop to where any thief or ruffian is instantly affected by the Hold Person spell. Guards come, take you away (or worse, he's actually a dark sorcerer who uses these people as test subjects).
I learned very quickly to never let my players think this sort of thing is okay unless they have put some effort into being a thief, and even then it is an encounter level challenge. Maybe they do succeed... too bad the PC thieves now are covered in a magical equivalent of that blue paint bomb s~+$ they do in real life for bank robbers.
As for the rest of what you're saying, I think you're going in a good direction. I think the reason you, like myself, haven't gotten much into the setting and lore is that it isn't your own.
Frankly the folks at Paizo who spend 40 hours a week making these things probably are better writers/designers and me or most GMs, but I am able to spin intrigue and make the world feel more real whenever I have an intimate, godlike control of the entirety of the world. I have a base core of how my world works and my players understand it. Whenever they ask me a question about it I can INSTANTLY give them an answer and I am certain it is the truth or at least truth as the PC/NPC understands it.
For example: in my last campaign (an evil campaign) an anti-paladin in my group wanted to know what would be the religious or social repercussions of him...
I like the idea of having the shopkeepers be retired experienced adventurers and I may borrow that idea and I agree 100% on the importance of having the world being your own.
A couple magic items raw may explode take out the room some may implode taking out just you (or the whole building depending on which one you find deserves a bigger bang)
However some magic items may just make you glow some may turn you into a bunny for 1d10 minutes one may turn your nose blue hair purple and your big toe red with green pokadots
All this depending on if you need a comical relief but it should be different things a clw probably wont explode taking half of new York with it... although probably what I would have clw do... lol
Alright, using these three principles, world construction has begun.
Now I am not a good cartographer so I decided to borrow a world map from a favorite series of mine and implement it into this campaign. If you are really interested in what the world looks like you will be finding the link at the bottom of the page.
Because this map is from a particular series I love and cherish, I am pretty familiar with the layout and the geography so that gives me a little more breathing room and fewer things that I have to learn. First off, I need to establish the native inhabitance before I start to colonize the world.
One way to breathe life into the world is to not make the world over-the-top. One way to do this is limit the amount of coolness you throw at your PC's as they will quickly set a standard that the whole game should just be them getting amazing items and fighting amazing monsters. Unfortunately, when your PC's establish a high standard, it is hard for you to impress them. Also, in my experience, over the top encounters can break immersion as some players can't even begin to imagine what you are describing to them.This is more of a guideline than a solid rule. It is something I want to pay attention to, instead of following it strictly.
This campaign will consist of a majority of undead, fey, and magical beasts, as I feel that all of these creature concepts aren't to overwhelming or powerful. I may include outsiders later on, but for now I will be keeping them out of the picture though they will be mentioned here and there to build up suspense in the player. I want the outsiders to be looked upon like something exotic and almost alien in nature.
Time to populate! I'm not going to strangle myself in details at the beginning so I will only start off with three major towns. I feel I can make up the small villages on the way and adding anymore civilizations will be too much for me, especially with what I already have planned.
First the culture. The population will be based off of life in medieval Europe (Oooh how original). Due to the destructive nature of magic, the local inhabitance will be ridden with superstition and will be more than happy to burn anyone they think may dabble in it. There to fight off the evils of magic will be the ruling religious authority who we will call The Peacekeepers for now until I come up with a different name. The Peacekeepers will be comprised of religious folk from all different lines of religion. They will be split into different sects according to whom they worship and though they may seem unified on the surface, there is much turmoil within the community as various religious ideals clash with each other, though everyone agrees that the common people need a ruling body and that they must govern and squelch any magical catastrophe from occurring. Now I will be using the Pathfinder gods, but I feel that even gods like Nethys won't be an issue as, just like in real life, I'm going to have the common view of the people act as a lens toward their god's belief and ideal.
Divine spellcasters won't have the same problems as arcane spellcasters, I intend to give them some struggle or another associated with spellcasting. Though I haven't determined what.
I think I will leave it at that for now. I have just begun to create the outline for realistic world filled with it's own culture and political ideals. Will be adding more soon. Until then!
Dotting for interest and when I have more time to respond.
-TimD
In general most of the weight of this is on you...the GM.
Modules and APs provide a base for what happens as James Jacobs has said numerous times. It is your responsibility to make the world come alive, breath interest into NPCs and help your players enjoy themselves. The GM is more the author than the writer is in ways.
And I disagree with 'One way to breathe life into the world is to not make the world over-the-top.'
I also enjoyed the Wheel of Time series and it was not because it was mundane and normal. One reason is because of things that were new and extreme.
A couple magic items raw may explode take out the room some may implode taking out just you (or the whole building depending on which one you find deserves a bigger bang)
However some magic items may just make you glow some may turn you into a bunny for 1d10 minutes one may turn your nose blue hair purple and your big toe red with green pokadotsAll this depending on if you need a comical relief but it should be different things a clw probably wont explode taking half of new York with it... although probably what I would have clw do... lol
I think I will probably avoid the exploding items, but other affects may occur. I don't plan on making magic a cute thing, a wand of cure light wounds may animate any small dead animals in a 30 ft circle around the caster and cause the animals to viscously attack the caster, likewise they may go and attack the enemies. A wand of fireball may absorb all fire within a 400ft radius or it may start to rattle and serve as a grenade the next turn. These effects would be randomly rolled and only occur on a 1 UMD skill check and even the explosion of the wand won't destroy the item. Again, this is all theory so far. Just sifting through ideas to see what works and what doesn't. Aside from the slight shift to the magic system and another slight modification, I don't plan on anymore homebrew ideas or house rules.
In general most of the weight of this is on you...the GM.
Modules and APs provide a base for what happens as James Jacobs has said numerous times. It is your responsibility to make the world come alive, breath interest into NPCs and help your players enjoy themselves. The GM is more the author than the writer is in ways.
And I disagree with 'One way to breathe life into the world is to not make the world over-the-top.'
I also enjoyed the Wheel of Time series and it was not because it was mundane and normal. One reason is because of things that were new and extreme.
Oh I agree. I didn't mean to come across as having a negative view of AP and modules, they just weren't working out for me. And I totally side with you about the Wheel of Time being awesome because of it's cool and extreme concepts, but those concepts wouldn't be able to shine if the environment was saturated with magical things. I felt like WoT did a good job of balancing this in a way that seemed natural for the world. But thanks for the input. ^^
I think that I misunderstood you as well. It sees that you're seeking opinions on a more specific campaign and not campaigns in general.
For lower magic ideas I would look outside of Pathfinder in general, or into old 3.0-3.5 variants like Iron Heroes. Or Midnight had a setting where magic was outlawed and had concepts to boost PCs in other ways to make up for the lack.
I believe that Pathfinder is set up to be magic intensive, especially at the higher levels.
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Right now I'm working on a world that believably incorporates semi-common magic.
* I will make the production of permanent magic items harder, while giving additional ability build points per level to compensate the WBL change. I want people's strength to be based a bit less on equipment and more on the individual person.
* Society is not so much moving towards the rational, bureaucratic state of real-world history. Individual power, of high-level people, tends to outclass disciplined foot troops.
Therefore, feudalism will be the major social system and it'll be there to stay. Individuals swear fealty to a liege, promising to assist the liege, in return for the liege promising to protect them from things the vassal can't cope with himself.
Feudalism isn't limited to martial characters. Wizards can swear fealty to priests can swear fealty to barbarians can swear fealty to a sorcerer.
Nobility is semi-hereditary; any high-level person can achieve "noble" status based on power, but powerful people tend to have the means to give their kids the best education. Also, Sorcery tends to run in families.
New powerful individuals will often draw the attention of the current elite, who may offer the newbie the chance to enter "the system"; or they'll try to eliminate the competition.
* Technology exists, and is progressing, but not smoothly. Some spellcasters consider the universality of technology - anyone can use it - to be a threat to their power, and they're trying to sabotage progress.
On the other hand, some people who don't like the current situation look to technology to provide an edge, against both overmighty warriors and casters. This is one of the driving forces behind the development of gunpowder weapons.
Some demons, who hate the very concept of civilization, are also focusing on sabotaging technological progress.
* No single religion has a monopoly on power or morality. In the early days of the current kingdoms, a few fairly shady religions offered crucial assistance to ensure the survival of (meta)humanity. They got their foot in the door, and groups like the Church of the Last Service (who raise people as zombies to fight on against invaders) are legally tolerated.
The multitude of different religions - a lot of people ascended to minor sainthood, able to grant spells to a small cult - means that the "customers" of religion have a buyer's market. No single religion can threaten an embargo on healing magic.
* Wizards often congregate into schools, sharing knowledge and plotting together. People respond with Illuminati/CFR/Trilateral Commission/Freemason conspiracy theories, some of which are true. Other powerful groups (criminal guilds, churches, nobles) make sure to plot to keep the wizard schools firmly against each other, rather than working together to take over.
For the OP, I am sure you and I are going to have different opinions as I thought the Wheel of Time Book were garbage, at least the first couple I was forced to read by my wife.
I agreee, at least a bit, with what you are getting at and it is a reason I run games in "my" world and not some "boxed set".
The first question to ask, I believe, when you are considering a campaign or even building your own world, is "are adventurers the exception or the rule?".
I have always had the opinion that adventurers are the exception. They are the brave few who are exceptional enough or brave/stupid enough to try their hand at adventuring. I don't think adventuring is just another trade, like smithing of farming, that people take up as a job. The adventurers are the heros (and the villians) of a world.
Once you can answer the question about how "common" adventurers are it really drives the rest of the world, to some extent. Does every village have their own druid to bless their fields and their own cleric to heal every injury? If adventuring parties, and by default things for the adventuring parties to kill/plunder, are common there would be an industry spring up around that... magic item shops, alchemists, bankers, etc....
Just really depends on what you are after.
One of keys in the games I run, and something Ihave gotten really positivie feedback fro players on, is the world goes on with or without the party. Events happen not centered around the party. Things change. Some of these affect the party and some don't but it makes it a living world rather than a sandbox for the party.
Just my 2 cents.
For the OP, I am sure you and I are going to have different opinions as I thought the Wheel of Time Book were garbage, at least the first couple I was forced to read by my wife.
I agreee, at least a bit, with what you are getting at and it is a reason I run games in "my" world and not some "boxed set".
The first question to ask, I believe, when you are considering a campaign or even building your own world, is "are adventurers the exception or the rule?".
I have always had the opinion that adventurers are the exception. They are the brave few who are exceptional enough or brave/stupid enough to try their hand at adventuring. I don't think adventuring is just another trade, like smithing of farming, that people take up as a job. The adventurers are the heros (and the villians) of a world.
Once you can answer the question about how "common" adventurers are it really drives the rest of the world, to some extent. Does every village have their own druid to bless their fields and their own cleric to heal every injury? If adventuring parties, and by default things for the adventuring parties to kill/plunder, are common there would be an industry spring up around that... magic item shops, alchemists, bankers, etc....
Just really depends on what you are after.
One of keys in the games I run, and something Ihave gotten really positivie feedback fro players on, is the world goes on with or without the party. Events happen not centered around the party. Things change. Some of these affect the party and some don't but it makes it a living world rather than a sandbox for the party.
Just my 2 cents.
I appreciate your 2 cents. I'm limiting how common adventurer's are in my world. The whole human population is just trying to survive against the harsh environment and it's denizens. The closest thing I would have to adventurer would be this major religious faction, who has taken it upon their shoulders to keep the world stable. So some towns may have a cleric or a druid, in the town, but if anything they would be their solely to provide assistance for the townsfolk. There is a magical beast market in the world, but if things go as I expect them to go, this party's influence is going to bring forth the first independent adventurer's guilds. The world will go on with or without the party, that is one thing I'm definitely aiming for. Thanks for the feedback!
For the risk of failure, I'd use a critical fumble deck for magic (and another for normal attacks).. the penalties can be similiar to a umd/concentration check failure, like using a random same-level spell, having the magic go off in a random direction, or having the spell go off in 1d10 minutes, randomly, instead.
I do know of the critical fumble generator on the SRD, but I have to say I like the ideas you have presented better.
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... I'm tired of PC's killing shopkeepers for loot or just being a bunch of sociopath's in general...
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this is a problem that should be adressed in a out of game talk. and if that cannot fix it. I suggest you find some other folks to GM fore.
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I like settings where adventurers are rare - it explains why the PCs have to be the ones to go on Quest X, and why they only run into the occasional rival adventuring party rather than there being one in every other dungeon.
In my current campaign, most of the population is level 1-3, with NPCs of level 5 or higher about 1 in 1000. Most of the high-level NPCs either live in very dangerous places, or are members of the army or a similar religious or academic institution rather than being adventurers.
One of the things my old Gm did that I do now if that the shopkeeper is ALWAYS more than they seem at first glance. That smith? He's actually a former adventurer monk who has turned to metalworking to find peace.
The magic shop owner should obviously be a tough cookie as well. How else did he make these things? He has a contingency set within his shop to where any thief or ruffian is instantly affected by the Hold Person spell. Guards come, take you away (or worse, he's actually a dark sorcerer who uses these people as test subjects).
I think this is taking it a bit far. There are a lot of shopkeepers in a believable setting, and not a lot of retired adventures (because adventuring is dangerous). There are plenty of other ways to discourage abusing shopkeepers besides making them retired adventurers.
The village blacksmith might be a senior member of the local militia, or a veteran of many bar brawls, or might have a powerful friend or family member. There might also be a local protector - a particularly competent town guard, powerful guild, high priest, wizard-magistrate, or indeed the occasional retired adventurer - who would avenge thefts or attacks within a town.
Shopkeepers that regularly sell valuable magic items will of course have superior security, either through their own magical skill, crafted security measures & traps, or hired help (because if you're selling things forth thousands of gp you can afford good security). Some might even make use of powerful patrons. One might even offer the PCs a discount on merchandise in exchange for tracking down a thief and making an example of them.
Then again, if your PCs want to kill your NPC shopkeepers for loot...
... I'm tired of PC's killing shopkeepers for loot or just being a bunch of sociopath's in general...this is a problem that should be adressed in a out of game talk. and if that cannot fix it. I suggest you find some other folks to GM fore.
Definitely time for a conversation. It's possible your players are bored, in which case more vibrant and sympathetic NPCs might fix it, or they might want to try an evil campaign as a change of pace. If they have no interest in a heroic campaign and that's what you really want to run, might be time to find different groups.
this is a problem that should be adressed in a out of game talk. and if that cannot fix it. I suggest you find some other folks to GM fore.... I'm tired of PC's killing shopkeepers for loot or just being a bunch of sociopath's in general...
....
I see where you're coming from, but I'm willing to let the players do whatever they want in the world they create. They just have to suffer the consequences. Aside from having the local law enforcement investigate and a high level NPC relative come into town looking for the one who killed his beloved uncle, I also increase the security at other stores if the PC"s are killing shop keepers on a frequent basis. I figure if they have fun by challenging me, the best solution outside of flat-out telling them no, is to wear them down. I recognize that there are some situations where players do need to be addressed OOC about certain issues that they are causing, but I am personally not a fan of that if that can be avoided, though there are some instances when I have had to do that before when it involved conflict between PC characters. That I will not tolerate.
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Also, magic items may be frequently commissioned rather than purchased off the shelf. This would make sense in worlds where adventurers are rare and there's not a reliable demand for a +2 Flaming Speed Scimitar (though there's always a chance of running into one used). Some very common items such as a +1 longsword, or potions and wands of cure light wounds, might be kept in stock, but there's not a full inventory to loot.
Also, magic items may be frequently commissioned rather than purchased off the shelf. This would make sense in worlds where adventurers are rare and there's not a reliable demand for a +2 Flaming Speed Scimitar (though there's always a chance of running into one used). Some very common items such as a +1 longsword, or potions and wands of cure light wounds, might be kept in stock, but there's not a full inventory to loot.
That's a thought. I might incorporate that idea.
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Adventurers don't have to be rare, if your world has a lot of stuff going down that requires people with PC class levels to cope with. If government isn't yet sophisticated, centralized and strong enough to handle local crises, they need adventurers.
And because high-level individuals are so much more powerful than a crowd of low-levels, it's certainly imaginable that bureaucratic governments, with large-scale armies, aren't quite so effective in PC as they turned out to be in the real world. Because a mid-level disgruntled guy with Charm spells can wreak havoc on your minor bureaucrats.
I see where you're coming from, but I'm willing to let the players do whatever they want in the world they create. They just have to suffer the consequences. Aside from having the local law enforcement investigate and a high level NPC relative come into town looking for the one who killed his beloved uncle, I also increase the security at other stores if the PC"s are killing shop keepers on a frequent basis. I figure if they have fun by challenging me, the best solution outside of flat-out telling them no, is to wear them down. I recognize that there are some situations where players do need to be addressed OOC about certain issues that they are causing, but I am personally not a fan of that if that can be avoided, though there are some instances when I have had to do that before when it involved conflict between PC characters. That I will not tolerate.this is a problem that should be adressed in a out of game talk. and if that cannot fix it. I suggest you find some other folks to GM fore.... I'm tired of PC's killing shopkeepers for loot or just being a bunch of sociopath's in general...
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I think the players challenging the GM by trying to force him to stop the robbing magic shops is a problem. That is a out of game challence taken in game. You spend time making adventures and even coming here asking for advice. They have fun by trying to breake your game. And you dont dare let the shop keepers life ensurance kill tham, because then your game would end.
If you are ok with it, then it is of cause ok. But i think that is your problem, rigth there.
OK, finally getting back to the thread, which I thought was going to be a very different sort of thread based on the thread title...
You and I seem to have very different take-aways on PF mods and basic premises, so I'm not sure how much my POV may assist.
I had written several paragraphs regarding unintended consequences of some of your anti-magic choices, especially as it comes to high threat encounters with Undead & Fey and realized I was coming across in a very negative light.
I think you may want to look at what effects your choices may have on play above 5th or 6th level when your PCs will be unable to affect many of the thematic enemy choices you've made (incorporeal undead for instance).
-TimD
OK, finally getting back to the thread, which I thought was going to be a very different sort of thread based on the thread title...
You and I seem to have very different take-aways on PF mods and basic premises, so I'm not sure how much my POV may assist.
I had written several paragraphs regarding unintended consequences of some of your anti-magic choices, especially as it comes to high threat encounters with Undead & Fey and realized I was coming across in a very negative light.
I think you may want to look at what effects your choices may have on play above 5th or 6th level when your PCs will be unable to affect many of the thematic enemy choices you've made (incorporeal undead for instance).
-TimD
Alright, I will think about it. And this thread turned out way different than I intended, but most of that is my fault. I originally wanted that would do just as the title implied, come up with some good "Core values to a campaign" while using a campaign I was coming up with as a basis. Then it just turned into "Critique my campaign" which I have no problem with, it's just that wasn't where I was wanting to go. So I think I'll discontinue this thread for now and start up a new thread with the same title and the same first post and try to go in a different direction.
*Probably will be changing the first post in my new thread as I realize that the first post is probably what changed the tone of the thread in the first place.
1. Reduce the use of magic in the world. I always thought that if magic was as prominent in the world of Golarion as it was, then the setting would look much different. While I could focus on changing the world to fit a high magic campaign setting, I find it easier to just make magic more rare or in my case, make it more dangerous.
First I would say that making magic rare in your world doesn't have to mean it's dangerous to the caster or even unpredictable. There could be any number of reasons why magic isn't that common:
1. Mage War.
2. Mage vs. Cleric war.
3. Large scale persecution.
4. The fact that it takes genius level intelligence to cast at high levels and there aren't that many geniuses in the world.
However, if you do want to make it a little chaotic, you could check out THIS SYSTEM. I haven't used it so I don't know how well it works, but it looked like it would fit what you are thinking.
...Divine spellcasters won't have the same problems as arcane spellcasters, I intend to give them some struggle or another associated with spellcasting. Though I haven't determined what...
Some thoughts on that...
1. What happens when deities find themselves competing for access to a single source of divine power? How would that impact their followers?
2. Why is our average divine spellcaster getting power handed to them on a platter without actually doing all that much for their god? In a world with actual manifesting divine presences, maybe clerics and the like should have to do something meaningful to be deemed worthy of divine favor.
3. Do your gods really think killing goblins in a quest for loot and bigger boomsticks is advancing their cause? Sure, goblins are evil (aren't they?), but what exactly does one dead goblin mean to a god?
4. If the goblins in question have a god of their own, why isn't it doing something to save them, or are worshipers only of value to 'good' gods? Why doesn't the goblin god just swat your cleric with a lightning bolt, or drop a curse on her, or send it's followers to burn down her house and eat her siblings?
5. When was the last time you saw a cleric try to win NPC converts, in game, (much less in RP) or build a shrine to their god, or try to publicly debate with a rival cleric? What about sabotaging a rival temple?
6. For a divine entity that is perfectly happy to help adventurers vaporize their adversaries with channeled divine power, do the ends justify the means? If so, does the deity allow the same behavior in their followers? If not, is that god a hypocrite, and does that matter?
What I'm getting at with this is that divine casters could be a totally different sort of critter than the standard heal/splatter trope they currently tend towards, but only if DM's can move in a different direction when they think about how the gods interact with them, and why the gods bother to do it at all. It wouldn't even require much (if anything )in the way of mechanical fiddling to radically alter divine casters...if DM's and players are willing to go against tradition.
Most clerics I've seen basically just scoop whupass out of the god-bucket once a day. A little thought and background work could make them very different, and something new.
Note to those of you wishing you could smite me right now, I definitely don't mean 'everyone plays clerics wrong', nor do I mean that all DM's are bad at handling divine/mortal interaction. There's just a lot of room for improvement within the trope itself, and I'd love to see people do more with it when they homebrew their own settings.