Does drawing a Hidden Weapon include Unarmed Strikes?

[Wise Old Man]

Does drawing a Hidden Weapon include Unarmed Strikes?

[Bill Dunn]

You mean drawing a hidden weapon under the sleight of hand skill description? I wouldn't think it would matter since, with an unarmed strike, you're never actually drawing a weapon at all. You just strike with a part of your body.

[LazarX]

Jacket wrote:

Does drawing a Hidden Weapon include Unarmed Strikes?

The only way this would be applicable, would be to have faked having your arms chopped off.

[williamoak]

LazarX wrote:

Jacket wrote:

Does drawing a Hidden Weapon include Unarmed Strikes?

The only way this would be applicable, would be to have faked having your arms chopped off.

Even then, unarmed strikes can be ANYTHING. A monk could slap you with it's ears and STILL do the same damage. A monk could "twerk" you to death with it's butt. Anything is possible.

[Nicos]

Bill Dunn wrote:

...I wouldn't think it would matter...

Perhaps is for the underhanded rogue talent?

[MC Templar]

Jacket wrote:

Does drawing a Hidden Weapon include Unarmed Strikes?

I don't believe you ever 'draw' your unarmed strikes... so.. no

[lemeres]

LazarX wrote:

Jacket wrote:

Does drawing a Hidden Weapon include Unarmed Strikes?

The only way this would be applicable, would be to have faked having your arms chopped off.

Ooo, I could actually see it working even before that, considering the kind of prop you would need for that kind of stunt:fake arms. Since you would have trouble taking your real arms out from behind the prop ones.

Also, this thread has gotten me started on fake movie titles: Drawn Dagger, Hidden Fist; The Clan of the Shadow Kick; Revengeance of the Headless Horseman

That last one might either be due to some form of undead that uses its head as an improvised weapon, or it is due to someone to pretend to be that undead, and then uses a deadly headbutting assassination technique.

In all seriousness: since you would have to somehow hide your arms, legs, and head, I would assume the appropriate rules would be the ones for an ambush since you pretty much would have to hide everything behind a tree. Ok, in actual seriousness: your limbs can safely be called "always wielded"....unless you are...disarmed...

[Wise Old Man]

Nicos wrote:

Bill Dunn wrote:

...I wouldn't think it would matter...

Perhaps is for the underhanded rogue talent?

Yes, exactly.

lemeres wrote:

In all seriousness: since you would have to somehow hide your arms, legs, and head, I would assume the appropriate rules would be the ones for an ambush since you pretty much would have to hide everything behind a tree.

Why not just put your hands in your pockets?

[Rynjin]

Think about what you just said.

Just...

*sigh*

[Wise Old Man]

With the suggestion of kBro from my last thread, he said to use

Diplomacy > Betrayer > Surprise Attack(Ex) > Underhanded

What came to my head was if I could do that using Improved Unarmed Strike with Sap Adept & Sap Master.

So in which case I would be able to use to my hands.

If not, I would also use Bludgeoner as well.

I apologize in advance if I don't know everything, Rynjin. I haven't read all the posts yet...

[Rynjin]

Not a matter of reading the posts it's just a common sense thing. How do you draw your hands (and feet, elbows, knees, head, chest, pelvic thrust, etc.)?

As for your second question, yes. You can use an Unared Strike for Sap Adept/Master. Despite the name, it only specifies a Bludgeoning weapon used to deal Non-lethal Sneak Attack damage, not limite to just the Sap weapon.

So, Betrayer + Surprise Attack works just fine as well (Betrayer says "Draw a weapon and attack" but it doesn't have a limiter that it MUST be a weapon you can draw or something like that. It's there as a clarification that yes, if you need to draw a weapon to attack, you can).

Underhanded is...iffy. Technically speaking it doesn't make sense to conceal an Unarmed Strike, but they are considered light weapons so maybe by RAW it works.

Personally I'd rule that as long as the target doesn't know you're going to attack them beforehand, a US is always "concealed".

[Nicos]

If the target does not know how dangerous is the rogue without a weapon I will rule that the rogue can use the underhanded talent.

[Dabbler]

williamoak wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Jacket wrote:

Does drawing a Hidden Weapon include Unarmed Strikes?

The only way this would be applicable, would be to have faked having your arms chopped off.

Even then, unarmed strikes can be ANYTHING. A monk could slap you with it's ears and STILL do the same damage. A monk could "twerk" you to death with it's butt. Anything is possible.

Depends on your GM's house-rules and good taste.

Otherwise I think Rynjin has the right of it.

[Ascalaphus]

Would you consider a spell-like ability delivered via touch attack to be a concealed weapon, for the purpose of Underhanded?

[kBro]

Using Betrayer and Underhanded together requires a little work since both abilities have limitations.

Betrayer allows you to make an attack after a successful diplomacy check. The target is only flatfooted if they are friendly as a result of the diplomacy check, so you would only get sneak attack then. Also, the attack is done as an immediate action, so you are only allowed to take free actions during the attack (which is why it requires Quick Draw), so you can't take any swift actions. However, if the immediate action leads to a surprise round, then you have a standard action and swift action you can perform, but this negates the purpose of the feat since you can always just attack someone if you have quick draw or some way to draw a weapon as a swift action. This leads me to believe that using the Betrayer feat causes a surprise round situation but not a true surprise round.

Underhanded only works a limited amount of times per day based on CHA. It only functions in the surprise round IF you get sneak attack, and you must use a weapon your target is unaware of.

To use them together, assuming you succeed on the diplomacy check and the target is friendly and flatfooted, you need to use a hidden weapon or weapon your target is unaware of, draw that weapon as a free action, and attack as an immediate action. A spring loaded wrist sheath won't work because using it is a swift action. Drawing a hidden weapon normally is a move action, so this won't work, unless you use sleight of hand beforehand during the diplomacy check to get it in hand. The easiest option would be to use a Sheath of Bladestealth with the weapon which you have quick draw with, which would allow you to draw the weapon as a free action and have the weapon concealed from your target (unless they have see invisibility or similar). A final option (subject to DM approval) would be to combine the Hidden Weapons ninja trick, which allows you to draw hidden weapons as a move action, with a weapon you have Quick Draw with, which allows you to draw weapons as a free action rather than a move (normally on non-hidden weapons, but since you already draw hidden weapons at the same speed as normal weapons, it would make sense to draw them even faster).

Unarmed strike is tricky because you don't need to draw it, but it's never a hidden weapon. I can see Underhanded being used with unarmed strike as a sort of sucker-punch, but it's up to the DM.

[MC Templar]

Anything you would suggest for 'concealing' an unarmed strike, I'd say would be covered by the bluff skill and not rules for concealed weapons

[Claxon]

Strictly speaking, I don't think unarmed strikes would ever be applicable for the underhanded rogue talent.