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Hello fello forum-browsers!
Figured for my next PFS characters I'd try a maneuver build, as I haven't tried that before. Looking to be a reach-weapon tripping character to get as many AoO's as possible. Any advice as to weapons/traits/feats[other than the obvious feats like improved/greater trip and felling smash]? Could Vital Strike chain be worth it [used with felling smash]? Thanks in advance.
If you're going reach weapon, consider Whirlwind Attack. Being able to hit all opponents within 10 feet of you with a combat maneuver of your choice (example: trip) is situationally wonderful.
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Whirlwind attack is neat, but I don't really think I have room for Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, especially since I already need Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Power Attack, Felling Smash, and a quite a few other feats. Its a neat trick, but IMO its a bit too situational.
Myself, I think vital works well with felling smash. Take dangeriously curious and have a cha of 12, put one point every lv into umd. Get a gravity blade wand.
Just some thoughts.
What were thinking for stats? Are you min/maxing to the max or going for something more versatile?
Traits: If Bred for War is allowed, that's a flat +1 to all CMB. There's also Heirloom Weapon for +2 on one type of combat maneuver with the specific weapon (does PFS allow the spell that turns a weapon masterwork for 300 gp component cost?), and I think there's one for chain-like or whip weapons to get +2 trip. For your other trait (since none of those would stack with each other), it's hard to beat Defender of the Society. Though, if Pragmagtic Activator makes Use Magic Device an "Int-based skill" (I think it clearly does, PFS DMs may disagree...), that makes it int-based *and* a class skill for Lore Warden.
Feats: Fury's Fall for adding dex to trip on top of str is pretty nice. You have most of the other good feats covered, other than Combat Reflexes which is essential. Lunge is also pretty sweet as soon as you can get it, and I'd recommend Pin Down and Dazing Assault to any high level reach fighter.
Vital Strike is terribad, don't go down that route. EDIT: I see... I still wouldn't take Vital Strike line so long as you have other useful feats left to pick up. Felling Smash should be viewed more as a consolation prize for when you can't full attack rather than your bread & butter option, and even aside from that, VS isn't going to add much damage anyway. It's much better for big natural attackers that can easily achieve 8d6 or better base damage (like Eidolon, wildshaped druid, etc...).
Equipment: Weapon cords are handy if allowed.
Other: Just try to maximize your size, strength, reach, and attack bonuses.
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Thanks for the advice everyone!
Yeah, that's what I was thinking with Vital Strike+Felling Smash. Potions of Enlarge Person, wand of Lead Blades, and a Glaive-Guisarme for 6d8+x+trip attacks. Trying to be a bit versatile, but not trying to sacrifice too much offense.Myself, I think vital works well with felling smash. Take dangeriously curious and have a cha of 12, put one point every lv into umd. Get a gravity blade wand.
Just some thoughts.
What were thinking for stats? Are you min/maxing to the max or going for something more versatile?
Heirloom weapon looks nice, but Defender of the Society isn't great for Lore Wardens, since I will be in light armor, and Pragmatic Activator is just a bit too much less than Dangerously Curious IMO. Yeah, Lunge and Combat Reflexes are really nice. Dazing Assault will be too late in the game to see use, as it caps [not really, but sorta] at 11-12, and the same with Pin Down. I personally like the vital strike line, as it gives an option for when Full Attacking isn't an option [which unless you have pounce, is quite often in PFS]. It is less than full attack, but still its a nice option to have, and as a fighter I will have a bunch of feats.Traits: If Bred for War is allowed, that's a flat +1 to all CMB. There's also Heirloom Weapon for +2 on one type of combat maneuver with the specific weapon (does PFS allow the spell that turns a weapon masterwork for 300 gp component cost?), and I think there's one for chain-like or whip weapons to get +2 trip. For your other trait (since none of those would stack with each other), it's hard to beat Defender of the Society. Though, if Pragmagtic Activator makes Use Magic Device an "Int-based skill" (I think it clearly does, PFS DMs may disagree...), that makes it int-based *and* a class skill for Lore Warden.
Feats: Fury's Fall for adding dex to trip on top of str is pretty nice. You have most of the other good feats covered, other than Combat Reflexes which is essential. Lunge is also pretty sweet as soon as you can get it, and I'd recommend Pin Down and Dazing Assault to any high level reach fighter.
Vital Strike is terribad, don't go down that route. EDIT: I see... I still wouldn't take Vital Strike line so long as you have other useful feats left to pick up. Felling Smash should be viewed more as a consolation prize for when you can't full attack rather than your bread & butter option, and even aside from that, VS isn't going to add much damage anyway. It's much better for big natural attackers that can easily achieve 8d6 or better base damage (like Eidolon, wildshaped druid, etc...).
I prefer Cleave+the dwarven cleave feat line over Whirlwind attack. You get basically the same benefits (as long as you keep hitting) but it's a standard action, so you can run in, trip people all around (thanks to all of that going on full BAB you'll probably not miss any) and get your AoOs if you want to. Of course, it's just as heavy of a feat investment so...
Yeah, the Dwarven feats are nice, but they are a very heavy feat investment, so like Whirlwind Attack, I think I'll pass.
Any advice as to a good race or particularly nice weapon? I've been thinking a Glaive-Guisarme, because it is a d10 trip reach weapon, but still I'm not sure about it.
EDIT:And is Vicious Stomp worth it?
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Not sure if vicious stomp is worth it because you need improved unarmed strike but a dip into cleric with a deity that has IUS as favored weapon MIGHT be an idea.
Check out Lucerne Hammer its a d12, reach, B or P weapon so you have 2 weapon types covered and do more damage.
Armor expert trait with mithral breast plate and you dont need the medium armor proficiency to wear it.
A second maneuver would give you more options if you face a non tripable opponent.
Personally I think a using felling smash is better then a full attack since your getting 2 attacks at full BAB minus power attack. Of course thats only against tripable opponents.
I think this is a doable stat array. Human 16, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12.
Also if you go human should look at fast learner, lets you get both skill point and HP for favored class at once and you can still take toughness to get more HP.
One thing to remember in figuring feats is that you get combat expertise as a bonus feat from Lore Warden at 2nd so dont need to spend a feat on it.
If you're using a reach weapon and planning to get enlarged, unarmed strike is well worth it: being able to threaten all the squares AND keep both hands on your weapon at the same time is a huge advantage.
Question on Lunge and Combat Reflexes: the way I read it, Lunge doesn't help your AoOs. Did I read that wrong?
There's also a feat call Combat Patrol, which lets you spend your standard action to threaten a whole lot of extra squares. Usually, that's a bad tradeoff, but with this particular build, it might be worth looking at.
Heirloom weapon looks nice, but Defender of the Society isn't great for Lore Wardens, since I will be in light armor, and Pragmatic Activator is just a bit too much less than Dangerously Curious IMO. Yeah, Lunge and Combat Reflexes are really nice. Dazing Assault will be too late in the game to see use, as it caps [not really, but sorta] at 11-12, and the same with Pin Down. I personally like the vital strike line, as it gives an option for when Full Attacking isn't an option [which unless you have pounce, is quite often in PFS]. It is less than full attack, but still its a nice option to have, and as a fighter I will have a bunch of feats.
Well, I was thinking long-term. Get some mithral breastplate and enjoy Defender of the Society's benefit and still have it count as light armor for restrictions. It wouldn't help at low levels, true.
Not sure what your comment on Pragmatic Activator meant. It's arguably just plain better than Dangerously Curious, if being now Int-based makes it a class skill.
Yeah, DA and Pin Down are very high level feats. Just mentioning them b/c you will presumably hit 11-12 eventually, they're nice feats to end with.
If you want Vital Strike, fine. But since it, Lunge, Greater Trip, and Felling Smash are all BAB +6 at the very least take them in this order: G. Trip, Lunge, Felling Smash, VS. That would be... 9th level, I guess. Assuming you didn't want Imp. Critical or something else that becomes available along the way. VS is certainly better than nothing. All I'm saying is...you will probably always have a better option to take instead at any given level.
If you're using a reach weapon and planning to get enlarged, unarmed strike is well worth it: being able to threaten all the squares AND keep both hands on your weapon at the same time is a huge advantage.
Can't you use armor spikes to threaten adjacent while using a reach weapon still, or did those get nerfed, too?
Question on Lunge and Combat Reflexes: the way I read it, Lunge doesn't help your AoOs. Did I read that wrong?
You're correct. It won't help on AoOs. But having the flexibility of hitting farther away is still golden. Maybe the enemy out-reaches you despite the reach weapon. Maybe you need the extra reach to trip another target beyond the ones already within reach. Maybe it makes a difference between being able to 5 ft step and full attack or not. And if the foe has less reach than you, it guarantees he's going to provoke trying to melee you on his turn.
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Lucerne Hammer is nice, but I'd prefer trip weapon+weapon cord so that I don't go around tripping myself accidentallly. I thought about Armor Expert, but I can get similar results with Mithral Kikko armor whilst also saving a trait. I figured that I can just swap to DPS or perform maneuvers like sunder or disarm at reach instead. I don't particularly see Fast Learner as worth it much, since just having a 14INT can net me enough skills for the 6 relevant knowledge checks and UMD, so I don't really need it.Check out Lucerne Hammer its a d12, reach, B or P weapon so you have 2 weapon types covered and do more damage.
Armor expert trait with mithral breast plate and you dont need the medium armor proficiency to wear it.
A second maneuver would give you more options if you face a non tripable opponent.
Personally I think a using felling smash is better then a full attack since your getting 2 attacks at full BAB minus power attack. Of course thats only against tripable opponents.
I think this is a doable stat array. Human 16, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12.
Also if you go human should look at fast learner, lets you get both skill point and HP for favored class at once and you can still take toughness to get more HP.
One thing to remember in figuring feats is that you get combat expertise as a bonus feat from Lore Warden at 2nd so dont need to spend a feat on it.
Yeah, I figured I'd use my fighter bonus feat for Improved Unarmed Strike and swap it out at higher levels using armor spikes instead. Combat Patrol is neat, but since the main [and almost only] way I will be getting attacks of opportunity will be from attacking, it won't be that useful. Might still take it though. Lunge doesn't apply to AoO's.If you're using a reach weapon and planning to get enlarged, unarmed strike is well worth it: being able to threaten all the squares AND keep both hands on your weapon at the same time is a huge advantage.
Question on Lunge and Combat Reflexes: the way I read it, Lunge doesn't help your AoOs. Did I read that wrong?
There's also a feat call Combat Patrol, which lets you spend your standard action to threaten a whole lot of extra squares. Usually, that's a bad tradeoff, but with this particular build, it might be worth looking at.
I had forgotten that all INT-based skills are class skills, so yeah, it would seem its better with Pragmatic Activator. Figured I would take the feats in that order using the swap-out fighter thing to help speed things along.Well, I was thinking long-term. Get some mithral breastplate and enjoy Defender of the Society's benefit and still have it count as light armor for restrictions. It wouldn't help at low levels, true.
Not sure what your comment on Pragmatic Activator meant. It's arguably just plain better than Dangerously Curious, if being now Int-based makes it a class skill.
Yeah, DA and Pin Down are very high level feats. Just mentioning them b/c you will presumably hit 11-12 eventually, they're nice feats to end with.
If you want Vital Strike, fine. But since it, Lunge, Greater Trip, and Felling Smash are all BAB +6 at the very least take them in this order: G. Trip, Lunge, Felling Smash, VS. That would be... 9th level, I guess. Assuming you didn't want Imp. Critical or something else that becomes available along the way. VS is certainly better than nothing. All I'm saying is...you will probably always have a better option to take instead at any given level.
Meteor Hammer. Check out my build. Reach, 4 attacks as a double weapon, trip + power attack. Best thing is to trip first with my bite them wail at them while they are on the ground.
The PRD says Meteor Hammers aren't double weapons; did you mean something like Kusarigama?
Thanks for the advice everyone, working on a build now and will post when done.
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Str16[all levels here]
Dex14
Con14
Int14
Wis12
Cha8
Traits:
Heirloom Weapon
Pragmatic Activator
Skills [all maxed]:
Knowledge [Dungeoneering]
Knowledge [Arcana]
Knowledge [Nature]
Knowledge [Planes]
Knowledge [Religion]
Knowledge [Local]
Use Magic Device
Feats:
L1:Power Attack
H1:Combat Reflexes
F1:Improved Unarmed Strike [swapped for Vital Strike at level 8]
F2:Combat Reflexes
F2:Improved Trip
L3:Furious Focus
F4:Weapon Focus
L5:Fury's Fall
F6:Greater Trip
L7:Felling Smash
F8:Lunge
L9:Greater Weapon Focus
F10:Weapon Specialization
L11:Pin Down
F12:Improved Vital Strike or Greater Weapon Spec.