Should Power Attack be a fighter class ability instead of a feat?

[Dryder]

We had this idea/discussion a few days ago, as it never happened that a player of a fighter character did not choose to take PA as a feat.
And, it seems, that PA is necessary for the fighter anyway.

[Ciaran Barnes]

The same could be said for other classes, and certain builds for even more classes.

[aegrisomnia]

I think this is a great idea. I'd throw in Combat Expertise and possibly Agile Maneuvers (optional) as well.

These are things any trained fighter should know how to do. Read the descriptions:

Quote:

Power Attack: You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

Quote:

Combat Expertise: You can increase your defense at the expense of your accuracy.

Quote:

Agile Maneuvers

You've learned to use your quickness in place of brute force when performing combat maneuvers.

There are likely others that would make sense for a martial character to get to take for free at character creation. As a 1st-level DEX based fighter, I find it completely plausible that you come with the equivalent of:

- Agile Maneuvers
- Dodge (maybe even Mobility)
- Fleet
- Nimble Moves

At least, if not others. Why would a 1st-level monk not have the equivalent of Improved Unarmed Strike? Etc.

[Mojorat]

your mistake is assuming pa is necessary for the fighter. correctly its necessary to do good melee damage. without access to it alot of martial classes would fall behind.

[Democratus]

I think it would be interesting if the base system allowed you to trade -1 to hit for +1 damage (trading accuracy for power).

It could then be a Fighter feature that they get +2 for each trade in (like the current Feat).

[Xaratherus]

I'd be more in line with what Democratus said - remove it as a feat and then make it a base game mechanic instead.

But make it a Fighter class feature? No, I don't agree on that. I take PA on any martial character focused on STR-based damage output.

[Skull]

I was thinking of a -1 att, +1 damage thing as well. Or an even worse -2att +1 damage. And does not grow on BAB.

Then everyone else could take the feat to make it better.

Fighting defensively is normally -4 att +2 dodge AC? But everyone and their dog can do it.

[BigDTBone]

I think all the "trade x for y" feats should be built into the game mechanics.

[Bob_Loblaw]

I think it would be interesting to keep the feats as-is for everyone but the fighter has a clause written into some of the combat feats that gives that feat a boost.

For example, power attack could have a clause that the fighter can choose how much its power attacking or maybe it reduces the penalty to hit by sacrificing the lower iterative attacks or maybe it gets a boost to damage.

This would make it so that the class itself wouldn't have to change. The drawback is that a ton of feats would. It would also take some feats that are already complex and make them more complex, which may not be a good thing.

[Dryder]

What I actually meant was, to keep it as a feat for other classes, but make it a class feature for the fighter, to safe him from spending a feat for an ability he should have anyway, and normally has to take anyway, 'cause PA is required for a lot of other fighter feats.

But you all have a lot of good points there...

[Bigdaddyjug]

No, Power Attack and Deadly Aim should be baked into normal combat for all classes and be available as an option on every single attack, with the same rules it has now. Once you apply Power Attack, it is applied to every attack you make for the rest of that round, same thing with Deadly Aim.

[Cap. Darling]

This should most likely have been in the homebrew part of the messageboards.
But to answer the question. no most martials want power attack. And it is not a exiting thing that will make the figther think he is any thing but full attacking. I dont think nerfing everyone but the figther, is the way to make him more interesting.

[ryric]

Power Attack is a feat.
Bonus feats are a fighter class feature.
So fighters can already have Power Attack as a 1st level class feature. Or choose from many other combat feats they want.

Sorry but a one level dip in fighter is already a very attractive option to many martial builds. Giving them a bunch of extra free feats as well as their first level bonus feat would make it even better.

[Bizbag]

There are enough 3/4 BAB classes that can still make good use out of Power Attack - making it a class feature would benefit fighters, but at the expense of rogues, monks, bards, inquisitors...

Changing it to a core mechanic is reasonable as a home rule, but is far too complex as a core rule, in my opinion.

Besides, the discussion the OP's discussion presumes that no fighter is ever without the feat. What about an archer fighter? Fighters, through sheer number of feats, may have it anyway, but it is not a core indispensable requirement of the archer.

In addition, the PRG fighter class has an entire new class feature in the form of Armor Mastery that suggests that being dexterity-based is compatible with the class in the form of Armor Training; these characters can retain high mobility in heavy armor and make greater use of their high dexterity scores for their AC. A level 15 Fighter in mithral full plate can make use of as much as +7 dex bonus to his AC.

The point of that bit is that you need not presume that all fighters are strength-based melee beasts.

[The Beard]

Fighters are already more than capable of keeping up with spell casters in terms of pure damage dealt. The last thing anyone needs to do is crap on the other melee builds that need power attack for their damage as well, few though they are.

[Eldrad]

No not at all. It depends on how you build your fighter.

[Orich Starkhart]

The Beard, Bizbag, Cap. Darling,
Dryder has already clarified that the proposal is to leave the feat as is, but add to the Fighter class a feature that gives them the ability without taking the feat. Essentially, give them an additional feat. So not other class loses access to Power Attack.

[Zhayne]

It shouldn't be a feat or a class ability. It should be a basic combat option anybody can use.

[Cel'Daren]

Expanding on what's been said, not only should Power Attack be a base combat mechanic that anyone can use, so should Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim, and any other feat that essentially trades points of AC/AB/DMG for other AC/AB/DMG.

After all, anyone should be able to grasp the concept of:

Sacrificing aim/defense for power by making powerful yet unwieldy strikes/shots (+2DMG per -1AB or -1AC)

Performing attacks more focused on keeping your enemy at bay than to actually hit them or cause damage (+1AC per -1AB or -2DMG)

Going all out just to hit an opponent, at the expense of power/defense (+1AB per -1AC or -2DMG)

I feel anybody or anything should be able to use such tactics without needing to pay a feat. They should also be able to choose just how large a transfer they want to perform up to the maximum.

[Bruunwald]

Lots of monsters use Power Attack, and those of us who design monsters for our games would miss it if it were relegated to a class ability.

Not every fighter takes it + many monsters use it + paladins, clerics, rangers and barbarians can really benefit from it = leave it a feat.