Share spell and Animal companion / Eidolon / Familiar - what are the limitations?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Animal companion

PRD wrote:
Share Spells (Ex): The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal). Spells cast in this way must come from a class that grants an animal companion. This ability does not allow the animal to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

Eidolon

PRD wrote:

Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

Familiar

PRD wrote:


Share Spells: The wizard may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on himself. A wizard may cast spells on his familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (magical beast).

So:

- to use the spells on a Animal Companion the spells should came from a class that get a Animal Companion (even if they get the AC with a feat? or it may come only from a class ability, so at most it should be granted by an archetype?)
As I read it that mean that the spells should come from your spell slots.

- to use the spells on a Eidolon they should come from a summoner spell list.
This FAQ seem to imply that "spell list" mean your spell slots, but the two terms aren't interchangeable

FAQ wrote:

Magus, Spell Combat: What spells can I cast when using spell combat?

The relevant text of the ability is:

"As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty)."

The spell you cast when using spell combat has to be a magus spell you know, and it must be a magus spell prepared with one of your magus spell slots.

(Other magus abilities may modify what spells can be used with spell combat. For example, the broad study magus arcana explicitly states the magus can use spell combat to cast spells from the selected non-magus spellcasting class.)

—Pathfinder Design Team, 11/14/13:

So it is unclear if you can use items that cast Summoner spells on a Eidolon (example, a wand of enlarge person).

- You can use any spell on your familiar, regardless of the source.
For sure there is no limit on the spell list from which the spells come.

- * -

In another thread Chapy said that this FAQ bar you from using items with the Sahre spell ability:

FAQ wrote:


Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?

No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.

—Sean K Reynolds, 09/01/10

But it say "feats and abilities that modify spells you cast" and that seem to limit the FAQ meaning to increasing DC, damage, range, etc. Share spell change your target nature. am am not totally convinced of Cheapy interpretation.

- * -

Maybe we need a new glossary entry that specify what we man with "spell list" so that the different authors will use the term in a consistent way.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
So it is unclear if you can use items that cast Summoner spells on a Eidolon (example, a wand of enlarge person).

If you read a few sentences before the text you bolded, you'll see that the Summoner must still be the one casting the spell. A wand will not work.

Diego Rossi wrote:
You can use any spell on your familiar, regardless of the source.

That's not what it says.

Diego Rossi wrote:
For sure there is no limit on the spell list from which the spells come.

Again, it's written right into the ability. The Wizard must cast the spell. I am unsure how a Wizard gains the ability to cast non-Wizard spells. Even if he/she learned a spell from another class's list, it would become a Wizard spell when cast by the Wizard, and it would work with Share Spells.


The part you emboldened about "magus spells" was in response to people interpreting it to mean "a spell that's on the magus spell list but isn't in a magus spell slot". Just a little bit of context for that one.

FWIW, you can't cast Enlarge Person on an eidolon [unless you're a synthesist].

Share Spells wrote:
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

The rule about ignoring type is only for spells with You as the target, and the Target of Enlarge Person is:

Quote:
Target one humanoid creature

----

Keep in mind, when those rules were written regarding Share Spells and animal companions, there were no feats or archetypes to give animal companions. I'd say that the simplest answer for feat-based animal companions is that they, like the cavalier, don't receive share spells. Or, to reference SRM in the Racial Heritage thread, they have the ability, but it does nothing for them. For classes or archetypes that give animal companions, if they class has spells, they can be used with Share Spells, but it's only spells from that list and slots (given the magus FAQ above, which is good enough as any for assuming to be the default interpretation).

----

My stance on the objects use for Share Spells was that the share spells ability modifies you cast (since even if it's the ability of the critter, it's still modifying your spells). That said, given the relatively recent re-interpretation of the SLA rules by the design team, I'm not as convinced on this issue as I once was, but I think the FAQ is still illuminating towards the intent. Share Spells is a mystical connection between you and your chum, not your items and your chum.

----

Yea, I agree.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:


FWIW, you can't cast Enlarge Person on an eidolon [unless you're a synthesist].

Share Spells wrote:
Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

The rule about ignoring type is only for spells with You as the target, and the Target of Enlarge Person is:

Two sentences Cheapy, not necessarily related to each other.

1) The summoner may cast a spell with a target of you on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself.
2) A summoner may cast spells eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).

It the second phrase was dependant on fulfilling the first phrase it would have been easier to write:
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of you] on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider).
No reason to repeat "A summoner may cast spells eidolon" again.


Yea, that's a valid way to read it.

goes digging


Okies, you're right!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
So it is unclear if you can use items that cast Summoner spells on a Eidolon (example, a wand of enlarge person).

If you read a few sentences before the text you bolded, you'll see that the Summoner must still be the one casting the spell. A wand will not work.

"The insert caster type may cast a spell ..."?

Scrolls are spell completion items, with this text:

"Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does."

Wands are spell trigger items, with this text:
"Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

Using both items is generally referred as "casting a spell" I have seen people assuming that they are close enough to casting a spell that they can work on the share spell ability.

I am in favour of your position, but I am not 100% sure.

- * -

Diego Rossi wrote:

You can use any spell on your familiar, regardless of the source.

For sure there is no limit on the spell list from which the spells come.

Two statements here. the first probably is a error (but, reading the forum,a common error), but there is nothing against the second in the rules.

Apparently a mystic theurge can cast his clerical spells on his familiar without problems. Nothing in the familiar Share spell ability limit it to the spells in the wizard list or wizard spell slots.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Okies, you're right!

Would be happier if I was 100% sure instead of 95%. But I am done that way. :P

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