Do Summoned Monsters get mad?

[hambilton]

So I am a wizard, about to hit 11th level in my campaign and as I come out with nasty combinations (hasted air elemental ~infinitely picking up monsters to dump in my pit, Dino Daze, Companion Counterspeller, etc... etc..) my GM has started to get grumpy. Add to this my faerie dragon that can hydraulic push almost anything into my pits. I think I broke my GM, when I suggested that I could summon a succubus to effectively give myself +2 Int from the Profane boon. Anyway, the group has started to say that the things I summon, if they are intelligent remember me and will come to get me eventually. Ok I get it, the Succubus is sitting around doing whatever they do and they show up suddenly naked and midway through their daily shower on the my battle field. And, in the end, it is GM Fiat.

TLDR
What are the rules as written vs the rules as intended for summoned creatures. How do you play them? Are they angry and forced to get revenge, or just another game mechanic like Rage or Fireball?

[williamoak]

It really depends;

THe "summons" spells are of limited power, and they wont get mad (though you cant get a succubus profane gift from a summoned one)

Spells that allow MORE, like planar binding, require negotiations & include the possibility of the outsider being angry (though you can bind theoretically anything).

I think you GM may have been letting you do a bit more than is reasonable with summoned creatures. Then again, it is kindof a crapshoot.

[blahpers]

You can get a profane gift from a summoned succbus, but I wouldn't recommend it uses you like taking Charisma drain once your spell expires. And that's the best case scenario.

Not sure what dino daze is.

RAW for summoned creatures is pretty straightforward so long as the spell lasts. There are no rules covering the creatures' disposition when not summoned.

[LazarX]

"Oi You! I was just eating my fish fingers and custard!"

[Mechagamera]

I am not aware of any current RAW on the matter (although I recall 1e had the notion that you could lose control of a summoned elemental, and it would attack you), but it is such a nice story line that I would hate to let it go to waste. I can't see the air elemental having the means to get to the prime material plane on its own, so you are safe there, unless your adventures take you to the plane of air (an air elemental lynch mob would make a nice encounter).

The succubus on the other hand.....is smart and mean, and likely to arrange for payback unless you make the summons worth her while (make sure she can energy drain something when you summon her). I generally figure demons and daemons are happy to be summoned as long as there is sufficient carnage to be had. If you summon a devil at my table, be prepared for a running sales pitch.

[Anguish]

summon disgruntled monster IV

Too cool.

As has been said the summon spells do exactly what they say they do. Changing "you can summon stuff" to "you can summon stuff but it hates you" is a big stretch. If the devs intended summons to be angry with the summoner, it'd say so.

That said, 1d4 pissed-off badgers sounds like a fun summon.

[hambilton]

blahpers wrote:

You can get a profane gift from a summoned succbus, but I wouldn't recommend it uses you like taking Charisma drain once your spell expires. And that's the best case scenario.

Not sure what dino daze is.

RAW for summoned creatures is pretty straightforward so long as the spell lasts. There are no rules covering the creatures' disposition when not summoned.

The Profane Gift does not say that it ends, just that it can be ended.

Dino Daze = Ankylosaurus (buff with haste or summon d3)

[Quantum Steve]

hambilton wrote:

blahpers wrote:

You can get a profane gift from a summoned succbus, but I wouldn't recommend it uses you like taking Charisma drain once your spell expires. And that's the best case scenario.

Not sure what dino daze is.

RAW for summoned creatures is pretty straightforward so long as the spell lasts. There are no rules covering the creatures' disposition when not summoned.

The Profane Gift does not say that it ends, just that it can be ended.

Dino Daze = Ankylosaurus (buff with haste or summon d3)

Why on Golarion would the Succubus not end the gift as soon as the summon expired?

The only reason I could think of is she had some means of remotely viewing the party and wanted to wait until the worst possible moment just for lulz.

Anyway, OP, even if summoned monsters to get irritated GMs do. Maybe you should talk with yours to figure out what's bugging him and reach a compromise regarding your summons. In my experience, a disgruntled GM is way more dangerous to a PC than a disgruntled Demon.

[The black raven]

I would not want a succubus to be able to suggest something to me all the time for a mere +2 to an ability. I would end up not succeeding on the save.

It is even worse with potential CHA drain if she wishes to withdraw it for her own CE reasons.

OP, I think your GM will soon LOVE you summoning a succubus for this profane gift when he realizes how much he can make you regret ever thinking of it.

[the David]

Well to do all these wonderful things with your summons you'd have to speak the right languages. So to order those air elementals to drop those monsters into a pit, you'd have to speak Auran.

Any player that would ask for a profane gift should get it, along with all of the consequences.

They might not get mad during the duration of the spell, but afterwards, ooh boy!

[hambilton]

I can think of a few ways around the drawbacks, however their value at that point isn't as good as other things you could do with similar resources.
I play a control wizard, its my job to try to control the battle field. Unfortunately, the methods to do this tend to be over powered in most games. My GM is pretty darn good at finding compromise.. I think Quantum Steve is right in not pissing off the GM. However, if your not frustrating the GM's plans, you probably aren't controlling the battle field.

As a note, most summoners or conjuration wizards I have seen have a really high intelligence and have a vast list of languages that just happen to match everything you might want to summon. Add to that my equally long list of languages that my faerie dragon can speak... I can communicate with most things I summon, telepathically as well.

[Suthainn]

Quantum Steve wrote:

Why on Golarion would the Succubus not end the gift as soon as the summon expired?

The only reason I could think of is she had some means of remotely viewing the party and wanted to wait until the worst possible moment just for lulz.

I would thank the player if they ever did this, Suggestion at will upon them, from a very pissed off Succubus?! Oh yes please.

"It's really hot, take all your clothes and armour off, it'll feel great."

"Fighting just brings more pain to the world, throw those horrible weapons away."

"You're so powerful and awesome, you should show everyone and cast a bunch of your best spells for them to watch in awe!" (-2 to save for reasonable suggestion?)

Also, 'You can instead specify conditions that will trigger a special activity during the duration. '

"If someone is looking at you it means they're planning to rob you, you have to strike first!"

Etc etc.

I'd probably write up a dozen and roll for a new one every few minutes. If she eventually gets bored then remove it and let him suck up the ability damage, but I suspect he will be desperate to find a Dispel Evil or Chaos long before that happens.

[Spook205]

I'm more surprised he's able to reliably whirlwind people with the air elementals. Keep in mind its a cyclone, little on the bottom, big on the top.

For the succubus thing, I'd ask him for the expedient of providing his orders (and providing those orders in a language the creature understands..the bane of all summoners everywhere is talking to the sodding things, otherwise they just attack).

Having him say stuff like 'grant me your profane gift!' should open up the hillarity.

[David knott 242]

hambilton wrote:

blahpers wrote:

You can get a profane gift from a summoned succbus, but I wouldn't recommend it uses you like taking Charisma drain once your spell expires. And that's the best case scenario.

RAW for summoned creatures is pretty straightforward so long as the spell lasts. There are no rules covering the creatures' disposition when not summoned.

The Profane Gift does not say that it ends, just that it can be ended.

Profane Gift is not a spell, but it would not be unreasonable to apply this rule from the Core Rulebook to it:

"When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire."

If that rule were to be applied to Profane Gift, no summoner in his right mind would ask for this gift or accept it from a summoned succubus.

[The Beard]

Boy there's a lot of people in here suggesting someone ought to be punished for perfectly legitimate tactics. Nowhere in any guide does it say summoned monsters get pissed at you. Furthermore, you probably aren't even calling the same ones every time. Nothing on the summon list is unique.

[Cap. Darling]

Sounds like you have Lots of preperation time ahead of battle. I dont think there is a problem with things that you summon wanting revenes if you use them for somthing they would object to. Hund archons used to kill Lots of innocent would properly report back to there boss and he would make plans to stop you. But it would be some in the future and a Nice adventure.

[Suthainn]

The Beard wrote:

Boy there's a lot of people in here suggesting someone ought to be punished for perfectly legitimate tactics. Nowhere in any guide does it say summoned monsters get pissed at you. Furthermore, you probably aren't even calling the same ones every time. Nothing on the summon list is unique.

Summoned Monsters not at all, they come, they fight, they go, they don't care. Demanding a Profane Gift (a semi permanent to permanent bonus) from a Succubus, a creature renowned for twisting and manipulating people? Yeah... that seems about right.

For a GM who wants to avoid this entirely, just say that Summons are a created 'ideal' version of the creature, not an actual creature more the idea of one. They did not exist before the summon, they do not exist after it ends, no hatred, no hassle and no permanent effects from them.

[PathlessBeth]

By the rules, no, they do not get mad. The DM can change the rules if they want. That is the end of the "rules questions" discussion...

...but since this topic has been in the wrong board pretty much since the start, I'll continue the non-rules discussion:
IIRC there was a non-OGL explanation of the summoning subschool in one of the books (I don't remember which one): basically, summoning spells don't actually bring existing creatures to your location, they create outsiders out of planar energy (outsiders are just animated planar energy to begin with). That's why they are conjuration. It's also why you have control over the summoned creature.
If that is how summoning spells work in your campaign (which they don't have to, you can change how they work), then it wouldn't really make sense for the summoned creature to "get mad", because the summoned creature only 'exists' for the duration of the spell.

Calling spells are completely different--they actually bring an individual creature to your location. That's why you need to bargain with them.

[hambilton]

Regarding the whirlwind from the elemental, it was semi recently updated to allow a lot of creatures to be stuffed into it. You just go back and forth over the spot and eventually they fail their save to be sucked up. It has such a high movement rate, specially with haste, that (if played correctly) could easily kill an entire party. Hasted 130 movement, with a run for full round action? Land on a monster, move 5 feet away, move back...rinse and repeat until it is sucked up or dead. Just save enough room in its VAST movement to fly up above your pit and drop them for good damage. Not dead? Pick them up from inside the pit, fly up and drop them again. You can fit a good deal of creatures in the volume of a whirlwind. You can also use elemental body to turn you or your familiar into an air elemental, with a whirlwind attack.

[EvilMinion]

Suthainn wrote:

The Beard wrote:

Boy there's a lot of people in here suggesting someone ought to be punished for perfectly legitimate tactics. Nowhere in any guide does it say summoned monsters get pissed at you. Furthermore, you probably aren't even calling the same ones every time. Nothing on the summon list is unique.

Summoned Monsters not at all, they come, they fight, they go, they don't care.

Ok, I can't quite agree with this. Summoning a creature does not change its alignment (for the aligned things)....

So if you summon a LG angel, its still LG... if you command it to kill a bunch of school children, it will do it, but I'm pretty sure it will care as its doing so. =)

[Mechagamera]

EvilMinion wrote:

Suthainn wrote:

The Beard wrote:

Boy there's a lot of people in here suggesting someone ought to be punished for perfectly legitimate tactics. Nowhere in any guide does it say summoned monsters get pissed at you. Furthermore, you probably aren't even calling the same ones every time. Nothing on the summon list is unique.

Summoned Monsters not at all, they come, they fight, they go, they don't care.

Ok, I can't quite agree with this. Summoning a creature does not change its alignment (for the aligned things)....

So if you summon a LG angel, its still LG... if you command it to kill a bunch of school children, it will do it, but I'm pretty sure it will care as its doing so. =)

+1. And even if it was a completely made up conjured thing, does anyone think that some actual angel (including one of the ones that are deities) wouldn't notice that your fake angel is making them look bad and drop a bunch of real angels and angry paladins on your head?

Also, if anyone thinks the chance to get XP and loot fighting another monster is "punishment", I don't think they understand the game.

[David knott 242]

The Beard wrote:

Boy there's a lot of people in here suggesting someone ought to be punished for perfectly legitimate tactics. Nowhere in any guide does it say summoned monsters get pissed at you. Furthermore, you probably aren't even calling the same ones every time. Nothing on the summon list is unique.

On the other hand, why would a succubus not take back her Profane Gift if she cannot remember who she gave it to? That is the main reason I suggested treating it like a spell. Accepting a Profane Gift is an absurdly risky thing to do unless you have very good reason to believe that the succubus will let you keep it indefinitely. Why should somebody who summons a succubus get a better deal than somebody who calls one?

[The Beard]

David knott 242 wrote:

The Beard wrote:

Boy there's a lot of people in here suggesting someone ought to be punished for perfectly legitimate tactics. Nowhere in any guide does it say summoned monsters get pissed at you. Furthermore, you probably aren't even calling the same ones every time. Nothing on the summon list is unique.

On the other hand, why would a succubus not take back her Profane Gift if she cannot remember who she gave it to? That is the main reason I suggested treating it like a spell. Accepting a Profane Gift is an absurdly risky thing to do unless you have very good reason to believe that the succubus will let you keep it indefinitely. Why should somebody who summons a succubus get a better deal than somebody who calls one?

I agree with you on that one. My statement was more to the effect of making light of people saying the guy's summons should start getting angry at him.

[Starbuck_II]

EvilMinion wrote:

Suthainn wrote:

The Beard wrote:

Boy there's a lot of people in here suggesting someone ought to be punished for perfectly legitimate tactics. Nowhere in any guide does it say summoned monsters get pissed at you. Furthermore, you probably aren't even calling the same ones every time. Nothing on the summon list is unique.

Summoned Monsters not at all, they come, they fight, they go, they don't care.

Ok, I can't quite agree with this. Summoning a creature does not change its alignment (for the aligned things)....

So if you summon a LG angel, its still LG... if you command it to kill a bunch of school children, it will do it, but I'm pretty sure it will care as its doing so. =)

But you don't summon Tim the Angel, you summon Tim's personage (who can die and in no way harms Tim when it does)

[Douglas Muir 406]

1) Summoned monsters aren't real. They're magical copies of real monsters that exist somewhere in the multiverse. They're bound to obey you for the duration of the summoning, and then they blink out of existence. Think of it as getting the creature with time-limited DRM.

2) Because it's a copy, if it dies, the real monster doesn't die.

3) It's unclear whether the real monster knows that a copy of it has been summoned.

4) You can use Planar Binding and Planar Ally to get real monsters. These stick around much longer and can have serious opinions about you (like you, hate you). When the spell expires, if they survive, they go back to their home plane, and they certainly carry their memories of you back there.

5) WRT the succubus, it's been FAQed that her profane gift ends when she dies or otherwise ceases to exist. This is to prevent very powerful characters from getting an easy +2 to a stat whenever they meet a succubus. Of course, players being players, some people have found ways around that... but anyway, succubus ceases to exist, Profane Gift goes away. So, the most reasonable interpretation is that the Profane Gift would stop working when the summons expired, and you'd take the 2d6 Cha hit.

6) If you don't want to play it that way -- and the rules are blurry enough to give you some wiggle room -- you could, alternately, say that the Profane Gift stays, but the real succubus, somewhere out there, is aware that you snitched a gift from her copy.

7) If you want a firm judgment on this, you can go to the "Ask James Jacobs" thread. James Jacobs' pronouncements are not canon, but most players and GMs accept them as binding.

Doug M.

[Douglas Muir 406]

As to OP Hambilton's original question... I've been on both sides of the "player coming up with cool tactics, GM getting cranky as the PC mows down his NPCs and monsters / blasts through his carefully crafted encounters". If your GM were here, I'd tell him to suck it up and raise his game; this sort of thing is exactly what players do.

Since he's not here, my suggestion to you is that if he's getting cranky, talk to him. And if you have some cool new tactic, don't try to surprise him with it -- tell him in advance. Players are often reluctant to do that. But it's a really good way to mitigate the pain. The alternative is, you surprise him, and then he watches an encounter disintegrate because he wasn't ready for this. That could make anyone grumpy.

Doug M.