I was arguing with a guy about this and now i ask you guys.
If i take a Monk AT that gives up Flurry( pehaps a 2 level dip in MoMS)can i then use TWF with the monk Improved unarmed strike? In the entry of monks unarmed strike in the book it says
"At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes."
This could meen
1. that the monk dose not have the option of striking with his of hand and there by getting an extra attack, when using the monk version of IUS.
2 Or it could meen taht he have that option but dosent get a penalty to hit and damage (full str and power attack on all attacks)
3 Or it could be that he does get the penalty to hit but not the damage penalty.(-2 to hit but full str and power attack on all attacks)
I have always looked at the line "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." as pointing towards possibillity 1.
If it is 2 or 3 then that MoMS Dip looks even better for the unarmed figther. Can you buy Flurry if you have the just one level in monk? And now even in armor? or can you only use the normal IUS if you want to TWF with your hands?
If i am unclear, or this is messy please tell me. And if not please tell me what is what. Or FAQ if you dont know either.
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I'm actually not sure.
If I had to guess though, I would think since they're both fairly specific rulings, they either combine perfectly, or they cannot apply.
Personally, what I gain from it, is that you can use TWF with IUS. With your IUS, taking a -2 to attack for being the primary(Precisely how Flurry works I believe... which makes more sense) and only counted as such. Flurry of Blows essentially is TWF with Light Weapons - though special in that an offhand attack that would normally suffer higher detriment, does not exist.
Circumstances=====================================Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal penalties=====================================–6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light================================–4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat===============================–4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat==========–2 –2
If I remember right, Flurry of Blows was essentially created by combining the two perfectly. So with your IUS, you're basically Flurrying - though at a BAB according to your combined classes BAB and you only gain extra attacks when you take the other TWF feats. For the rest of your weapons though, the standard penalties apply between Primary/Offhand.
I believe this is why our Flurry starts off at -1 BAB - Because -2 has already been factored in much like TWF with a Primary Light Weapon. We have full BAB just like a fighter when we Flurry. Flurry just gets more Perks than TWF.
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If it is 2 or 3 then that MoMS Dip looks even better for the unarmed figther. Can you buy Flurry if you have the just one level in monk? And now even in armor? or can you only use the normal IUS if you want to TWF with your hands?
If i am unclear, or this is messy please tell me. And if not please tell me what is what. Or FAQ if you dont know either.
*You can only Flurry with No Armor - As stated in the Monk specifics.
*You could "buy" Flurry via Monk Dip(not MoMS) but you would only be gaining 1 extra attack. Flurry and TWF do not combine for more attacks; you use one or the other.
*You can use IUS with wither Flurry or TWF.
*The nice thing about Flurry is that it gives you the extra attacks(for free) at the proper BAB as your grow in your Monk. You gain an extra attack at level 1 when flurrying, a second at level 8, and a third at level 15. TWF requires you to take extra Feats for those extra attacks, though generally getting at the same time Flurry would.
Your questions were a little misleading to me, but I think I may have answered them...
Also, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Should be 3. The "no offhand thing" means you don't need to take Double Slice. By the wording of PA, it should also grant you normal damage on those attacks.
You can FoB as long as you have the class feature, but the number of extra attacks is dependent on your monk level.
Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear.Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
The Sohei archetype can flurry in light armor, but still loses his bonus AC
FAQEdit: for clarity
I asked about monk AT without flurry.
I guess that kind tell me that my post was a mess.But to get it clear. For you "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." meens: Monks have a off hand attack when using monk IUS just with out penalty to damage, even with out flurry. Is that rigth?
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Should be 3. The "no offhand thing" means you don't need to take Double Slice. By the wording of PA, it should also grant you normal damage on those attacks.
You can FoB as long as you have the class feature, but the number of extra attacks is dependent on your monk level.
Monks are proficient with the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear.Monks are not proficient with any armor or shields.
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses his AC bonus, as well as his fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.
The Sohei archetype can flurry in light armor, but still loses his bonus AC
FAQEdit: for clarity
I asked about monk AT without flurry.
I guess that kind tell me that my post was a mess.But to get it clear. For you "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed." meens: Monks have a off hand attack when using monk IUS just with out penalty to damage, even with out flurry. Is that rigth?
That is correct. You still have your full Str to your IUS and only the -2 detriment I believe(treated as Primary Light Weapon)
If it is 2 or 3 then that MoMS Dip looks even better for the unarmed figther. Can you buy Flurry if you have the just one level in monk? And now even in armor? or can you only use the normal IUS if you want to TWF with your hands?
If i am unclear, or this is messy please tell me. And if not please tell me what is what. Or FAQ if you dont know either.*You can only Flurry with No Armor - As stated in the Monk specifics.
*You could "buy" Flurry via Monk Dip(not MoMS) but you would only be gaining 1 extra attack. Flurry and TWF do not combine for more attacks; you use one or the other.
*You can use IUS with wither Flurry or TWF.
*The nice thing about Flurry is that it gives you the extra attacks(for free) at the proper BAB as your grow in your Monk. You gain an extra attack at level 1 when flurrying, a second at level 8, and a third at level 15. TWF requires you to take extra Feats for those extra attacks, though generally getting at the same time Flurry would.
Your questions were a little misleading to me, but I think I may have answered them...
Also, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
What i ask is.
If i take 2 levels in MOMS and 6 levels in Unarmed figther can i then use TWF and improved TWF to have 4 attacks with full str and power attack? There by getting, what is no doubt a great form of TWF that no one else can simulate with out taking the monk dip.edit: i missed somthing
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If it is 2 or 3 then that MoMS Dip looks even better for the unarmed figther. Can you buy Flurry if you have the just one level in monk? And now even in armor? or can you only use the normal IUS if you want to TWF with your hands?
If i am unclear, or this is messy please tell me. And if not please tell me what is what. Or FAQ if you dont know either.*You can only Flurry with No Armor - As stated in the Monk specifics.
*You could "buy" Flurry via Monk Dip(not MoMS) but you would only be gaining 1 extra attack. Flurry and TWF do not combine for more attacks; you use one or the other.
*You can use IUS with wither Flurry or TWF.
*The nice thing about Flurry is that it gives you the extra attacks(for free) at the proper BAB as your grow in your Monk. You gain an extra attack at level 1 when flurrying, a second at level 8, and a third at level 15. TWF requires you to take extra Feats for those extra attacks, though generally getting at the same time Flurry would.
Your questions were a little misleading to me, but I think I may have answered them...
Also, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
What i ask is.
If i take 2 levels in MOMS and 8 6 levels in Unarmed figther can i then use TWF and improved TWF to have 4 attacks with full str and power attack? There by getting, what is no doubt a great form of TWF that no one else can simulate with out taking the monk dip.
You should have just asked this to begin with! Lol.
Yes. As long as your BAB meets +6 at that point so that you can take Improved TWF, That is correct. However, they are still treated as a Primary Light Weapon, so they take a -2 to Attack when Full Attacking. You keep your full Str bonus with your IUS at all times.
Edit: One attack for existing. One attack for BAB +6. One attack for TWF. One more Attack for Improved TWF.
Maybe I should have bolded the first sentence.
To my knowledge, the monk stipulation does not (and should not) restrict your ability to TWF without flurry.
It would make monks worse at UAS than everyone else.
Thanks for the FAQ link it seems to close the case.
But this will make the Monks better than everyone else and also better than flurry if you take a full bab class with to hit bonusses and the TWF line.I dont mind either way, but my planned TWF dude is gonna be figthing barehanden if you are rigth:)
By my math he will with str 20, 2 dragon style feats and power attack, AoMF+1, weapon focus, specialicition and a brawling armor he will be at +13/+13/+8/+8 1d6+17 and 2 or 3 more damage on the first attack.
Take three levels of monk and pick up Monastic Legacy.
I dont think you would get full strength to damage if using TWF in place of FOB. Applying the full strength bonus to damage, and using any combination of attacks is specific to FOB.
TWF is just that. Even if you're unarmed the extra attacks you get from them are subject to the penatlies of TWF, such as 1/2 Strength bonus to damage, and your Monk BAB is treated as 3/4, rather than per HD.
For instance. FOB at lvl 3 = +1/+1 (FOB treats your BAB as your HD so +3, then -2 to each attack = +1/+1.
TWF at lvl 3 would be BAB+2. -2 For two-weapon fighting = +0/+0.
The 1/2 str dmg for what will be your offhand attack (which technically cant be the same as your primary attack, since it's TWF) is applied.
While you are completely correct about the 3/4 BAB, I don't think you're right about the 1/2 Strength thing.
The "no off hand" text is actually under Unarmed Strike, not flurry:
Under Flurry of Blows, it actually implies that monks do have an off-hand while flurrying:
This has led to some interesting threads on the intersection of flurry with an unarmed strike vs. flurry with a weapon when combined with Power Attack (Flurry of Power Attacks looks like the most recent. The general consensus seems to be:
Case A) Flurry with unarmed strike: both attacks get 1xSTR and 1xPA bonus.
Case B) Flurry with two weapons: "Main hand" attack gets 1xSTR and 1xPA bonus, but "Off hand" attack gets 1xSTR and 0.5xPA bonus.
Case C) Flurry with a single two-handed weapon: Both attacks get 1xSTR and 1.5xPA bonus.
Not really discussed, but there's also
Case D) Flurry with an unarmed strike and one-handed weapon: If the weapon is the "Main attack" (rolled first), then it gets 1xSTR and 1xPA bonus. If the weapon is the "Off hand attack" (rolled 2nd), then it gets 1xSTR and 0.5xPA bonus. The unarmed strike always gets 1xSTR and 1xPA bonus.
Based on these arguments, I'd say that a monk (and ONLY a monk) using unarmed strike with TWF (not flurry) still gets 1xSTR and 1xPA bonus on all attacks. Likewise, a monk using TWF (not flurry) with weapons has the same 1/2 Str and 1/2 PA bonus on the off hand as everyone else.
I have no idea whether that's what the designers intended, but that is what they wrote.