Do you have particular spells in mind (like just the melee augmenting ones?), or do you think that 'mimic second rate spellcasters' is really the only chance for fixing martials?
(Given that they say we're stuck with the CRB 'balance', where Power Attack is the upper end of non-caster power and interest, and Wizards get Wish, it's hard to say you're wrong if you do).
Do you have particular spells in mind (like just the melee augmenting ones?), or do you think that 'mimic second rate spellcasters' is really the only chance for fixing martials?
(Given that they say we're stuck with the CRB 'balance', where Power Attack is the upper end of non-caster power and interest, and Wizards get Wish, it's hard to say you're wrong if you do).
All the spells!
Imagine a fighter with a +5 longsword of heroism (since speed is an ability why not other spells?) and a +5 shield of mirror image or blur.
With things like boost haste and dimension door.
You could have magic arrows that produce a grease effect that trips using the wielder's CMB.
Or even a Belt of physical perfection that can be activated for an enlarge person effect.
EDIT: It seems Paizo is more likely to allow other classes access to existing abilities than it is to create new cool abilities for martials to use.
Do you have particular spells in mind (like just the melee augmenting ones?), or do you think that 'mimic second rate spellcasters' is really the only chance for fixing martials?
(Given that they say we're stuck with the CRB 'balance', where Power Attack is the upper end of non-caster power and interest, and Wizards get Wish, it's hard to say you're wrong if you do).
All the spells!
Imagine a fighter with a +5 longsword of heroism (since speed is an ability why not other spells?) and a +5 shield of mirror image or blur.
With things like boost haste and dimension door.
You could have magic arrows that produce a grease effect that trips using the wielder's CMB.
Or even a Belt of physical perfection that can be activated for an enlarge person effect.
EDIT: It seems Paizo is more likely to allow other classes access to existing abilities than it is to create new cool abilities for martials to use.
I can kind of see where you're coming from, I think?
Casters have spells, martials have magic weapons and armour.Casters get access to all the martial's tricks through their spells, gives martials access to caster tricks through their gear.
But, given that Speed requires at least a +4 weapon, costing at least 32,000gp, which WBL indicates you should be at least level 8 for (and that's if it's your only fancy bit of kit) while the wizard can pick up Haste at level 3...
Doesn't the established CRB 'balance' dictate that where martials can access caster tricks through their gear, it has to be much later, at much greater cost?
I thought Speed was a +3? Anywho speed is an always on effect. Limited effects would be much cheaper. For example, boots of speed are only 6K gold and are equivalent to a 7th level spell at CL 10.
There are plenty of examples of martials getting mildly cheap access to spells via gear. Why not just expand the idea. Technically these items already exist in the CRB via custom magical item crafting rules.
I thought Speed was a +3? Anywho speed is an always on effect. Limited effects would be much cheaper. For example, boots of speed are only 6K gold and are equivalent to a 7th level spell at CL 10.
There are plenty of examples of martials getting mildly cheap access to spells via gear. Why not just expand the idea. Technically these items already exist in the CRB via custom magical item crafting rules.
Boots of speed are 12k. Speed is a +3, meaning it requires at least a +4 weapon (+1 speed).
Items became one of the go-to patches for martial classes all throughout 3.x, precisely because they can help paper over the systemic problems without making you rewrite the system itself.
That said, items do typically work for everyone and a great deal of the Core Rulebook items are actually caster-focused. Injudicious buffing via item just ends up meaning the caster is running away from the fighter as fast as the fighter is running to catch up.
One could probably limit this by focusing improvements on magic arms (including AoMF), armor and shields. Currently these are powered at roughly the same level as any other type of magic item, meaning that using them is not a terribly great benefit.
I thought Speed was a +3?
It is, but you need +1 Enhancement first. Hence +4 minimum.
I thought Speed was a +3? Anywho speed is an always on effect. Limited effects would be much cheaper. For example, boots of speed are only 6K gold and are equivalent to a 7th level spell at CL 10.
There are plenty of examples of martials getting mildly cheap access to spells via gear. Why not just expand the idea. Technically these items already exist in the CRB via custom magical item crafting rules.
Boots of speed are 12k. Speed is a +3, meaning it requires at least a +4 weapon (+1 speed).
Items became one of the go-to patches for martial classes all throughout 3.x, precisely because they can help paper over the systemic problems without making you rewrite the system itself.
That said, items do typically work for everyone and a great deal of the Core Rulebook items are actually caster-focused. Injudicious buffing via item just ends up meaning the caster is running away from the fighter as fast as the fighter is running to catch up.
One could probably limit this by focusing improvements on magic arms (including AoMF), armor and shields. Currently these are powered at roughly the same level as any other type of magic item, meaning that using them is not a terribly great benefit.
Yes but casters wouldn't benefit from these items nearly as much, just like a fighter would get little benefit from the Transformation spell.
I thought Speed was a +3?It is, but you need +1 Enhancement first. Hence +4 minimum.
Brings up something I noticed. Armor can have effects that are just an additional flat cost that doesn't count towards the +10 maximum.
Why don't weapons have anything like that?
Why can't fighters do things that affect the battlefield, buff allies, debuff enemies, create difficult terrain, and so on? Why is daze so impossible for fighters to impose but a 0th level spell for arcane casters? I don't get the disparity and your "why not play a wizard?" is exactly my point. Everything good and fun is tied up in the casters and everything mathematical is tied up in a fighter's optimization.
Why not have martials do all that stuff with gear?
Casters use spells to do martial things, why not have gear be able to do caster things?
This prevents paizo from having to print the Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic.
EDIT: I really dislike how high level WBL is best spent on inherent bonuses.
Why can't fighters do things that affect the battlefield, buff allies, debuff enemies, create difficult terrain, and so on? Why is daze so impossible for fighters to impose but a 0th level spell for arcane casters? I don't get the disparity and your "why not play a wizard?" is exactly my point. Everything good and fun is tied up in the casters and everything mathematical is tied up in a fighter's optimization.Why not have martials do all that stuff with gear?
Casters use spells to do martial things, why not have gear be able to do caster things?
This prevents paizo from having to print the Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic.
I'm just worried that the items will take up important slots. The Big 6 are just such a huge part of the game. No one thinks about cool cloaks to take since everyone needs a Clock of Resistance.
And then pricing might block you off from those options anyways.
Why can't fighters do things that affect the battlefield, buff allies, debuff enemies, create difficult terrain, and so on? Why is daze so impossible for fighters to impose but a 0th level spell for arcane casters? I don't get the disparity and your "why not play a wizard?" is exactly my point. Everything good and fun is tied up in the casters and everything mathematical is tied up in a fighter's optimization.Why not have martials do all that stuff with gear?
Casters use spells to do martial things, why not have gear be able to do caster things?
This prevents paizo from having to print the Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic.
I'm just worried that the items will take up important slots. The Big 6 are just such a huge part of the game. No one thinks about cool cloaks to take since everyone needs a Clock of Resistance.
And then pricing might block you off from those options anyways.
Combo magic items are essential. We need more flat cost enchantments like armors have.
I would like for magic items to be able to better replicate spells. That way martials could just gear up for spells AND then have martial prowess on top of that. Casters keep their advantage by having access to more spells at the same time, but martials would then have something over casters that casters could not easily emulate.
What about just wands? Use Magic Device isn't a class skill, but it looks like the DC for activating a wand is a flat 20. Just as a thought exercise, you could take a "face" martial with a nice chunk of Charisma to it, maybe give it one level of Rogue to acquire UMD as a class skill, take Magical Aptitude or Skill Focus (or both), and that's a...
+4-5 from your Charisma
+3 from being a class skill
+2-10 depending on level and combination of feats
You'd be casting spells of any type you wanted with no chance of failure by the time you're level 10. To fit in better with the fact that you're a martial character, you could make like...sword wands, or something, so you don't have to draw the wands out to cast things. They'd need a recharging use mechanic of some kind, too, rather than having to simply by a new sword every time. Perhaps just paying to have the charges restored (preferably for some amount that doesn't cost as much as adding the charges the first time).
was that fighters are simple numerical machines of damage, but that is both boring and non-scaling.
My point is that if this is boring to you, perhaps you didn't really want to play a fighter at all. It really sounds like you just want to play a wizard. You really like the things wizards have and are complaining that martials don't have them. I wasn't being snarky, I was literally asking why you aren't playing a wizard if you want the things offered by wizards. Perhaps you could play some sort of melee cleric, instead, that seems like it would be fairly viable. Or perhaps the magus? Your claim that "Everything good and fun is tied to wizards" goes against my common knowledge of people that enjoy playing fighters and barbarians. If playing the martial classes truly had nothing fun going for it, people would not be playing them, so I don't think we can leave the effects you're mentioning exclusive to spellcasters without any problems. The fighter is a completely non-magical class and adding things to that class that are very obviously magical in nature is going too far and breaks the feeling of the class.
Now some affects you've mentioned could fit pretty well, too, so long as they don't step on the toes of your attacks too much. Party buffs in the form of some inspiring speeches or yells seem pretty believable and have definite precedents set (I still think there are actually classes specifically for that floating around in either 3.5 or Pathfinder itself), similarly, some debuffs could be applied in the same way. Intimidate actually does this already, but could perhaps be expanded. The usefulness of combat maneuvers shouldn't be understated. Knocking people over with a trip or overrun attempt, bull rushing things off a ledge, or even just getting some attacks of opportunity as things attempt to run past are all definitely things that go beyond the Full Attack Action in some way.
I'm just worried that the items will take up important slots. The Big 6 are just such a huge part of the game. No one thinks about cool cloaks to take since everyone needs a Clock of Resistance.
I think that might fall into a core design problem again. Magical items in general are very powerful and closely tied to character progression, such that you're expected to have a certain amount of stuff in addition to your actual levels, and that certain amount of stuff needs to be well geared to your character as a result. This limits the amount of creative options you can pursue when your belt has to be one thing and your cloak has to be another. Even in situations where your items aren't spelled out and chosen for you, there's usually some obvious "best choices" that provide more bang than the others, though perhaps adding things with spell effects would change which choices are best.